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Old 11-04-2018, 09:10   #16
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Re: Loonies Got Their Way

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Microplastics I think will soon prove to be **very** serious, and prevention efforts will come far too late

https://www.google.com/search?q=tiny...ans+food+chain
Agree that plastics in the ocean are a much, much larger problem than human waste in the ocean. Just talked to a fellow sailor who recently returned from Southeast Asia, and the thing he said he noticed the most was a) the amount of plastic in the water, and b) the almost complete lack of seabirds, which presumably have been ingesting a) above.
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Old 11-04-2018, 09:11   #17
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Re: Loonies Got Their Way

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This makes criminals out of people whose onboard systems are CLEANER than Seattle Metro's secondary treatment system, especially during big rain events when they have CSO's.

The hypocrisy is breathtaking.

I have the same thing here in NYC. One of the boats is tied up on a creek (yes, we have creeks in NYC!) where there are some seventeen or nineteen CSOs (combined sewer overflows). Despite all of the CSOs, a few of the friends of the creek are upset about some fifteen or twenty boats tied up on the creek because the MIGHT discharge a pound of waste, as opposed to the many CSOs that constantly discharge tons of waste.

I guess sound bytes are more important than doing something useful.
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Old 11-04-2018, 09:21   #18
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Re: Loonies Got Their Way

Their "Why It Matters" page isn't very convincing - where are the citations or scientific studies? It doesn't make you a loony to want clean water (as boaters I think we all want clean water) but the Dept of Ecology hasn't shown that this is really a significant enough problem to be worth focusing on, nor even that an NDZ will create any measurable improvement.

We pump-out in marinas but when we sail to BC everyone there that we talk to is doing direct discharge except in a few small NDZs (Desolation Sound). But I agree with the OP - it's not convincing that such a large NDZ in deep water (500+ feet in places), and currents exchanging the water daily, is really necessary, particularly given Seattle direct discharged 200+ million gallons of untreated wastewater this winter (30 million gallons of that was raw sewage) and there seems to have been little consequence or fallout from that.

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle...und-heres-why/

And how are NDZ's actually enforced? Has anyone ever heard of a local non-commercial boat getting prosecuted or fined for not having a discharge seacock locked or ziptied? (what's the point of securing a seacock against yourself anyway? It's pretty much a symbolic gesture - like locking your liquor cabinet proves you're not going to drink?)

I'd rather we focus on more significant issues, like microplastics and other plastic waste discarded by commercial fishing fleets, cities, etc. And cities that discharge waste from 100,000+ residents, which is a lot more than the 2000-4000 recreational vessels without a Type III and 215 commercial vessels that the NDZ is going after.
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Old 11-04-2018, 09:27   #19
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Re: Loonies Got Their Way

Tesselate,

Thanks for the link. Great article which points out the environmental groups collective hypocrisy.
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle...und-heres-why/
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Old 11-04-2018, 09:29   #20
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Re: Loonies Got Their Way

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It's been going on a long time, we are used to it
Boy, I'll say!
Kilmer: Canadian sewage in Strait of Juan de Fuca a ‘mess’ | HeraldNet.com
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Old 11-04-2018, 09:48   #21
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Re: Loonies Got Their Way

One more for the road:

https://projects.seattletimes.com/2017/west-point/
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Old 11-04-2018, 10:14   #22
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Re: Loonies Got Their Way

[QUOTE\
Reading the article though it looks like this new legislation is just because it interferes with local business interests. There are shellfish farms in the area that are losing money because crops are being rejected for some reason related to the waste.

At least if I understood correctly.[/QUOTE]

I did not see anywhere in the article where it stated or implied this was to protect commercial interests. They said "harvest" which includes sportfishers as well.
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Old 11-04-2018, 10:17   #23
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Re: Loonies Got Their Way

The issue for regulators is that the only measurement that matters is whether the total discharge exceeds the carrying capacity. This is measured by water sampling and micro-organism counts. If it is above a set level it means the environment if unable to process the volume discharged.
They then look for the politically and economically softest targets to reduce discharge. Can't do much about dog poo washed of the street, run off from farm land has a high political cost, improving water treatment plants has a high financial cost. Guess who is a soft target to say 'we have done something'
The solution is to install expensive pump out facilities to transfer wast to already inadequate water treatment facilities so THEY can discharge it into the same river - Real joined up thinking there!!!!
Of course this is not going to be a problem for the future as the government seams to be busy dismantleming all the environmental protection it can...
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Old 11-04-2018, 10:23   #24
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Re: Loonies Got Their Way

They never fine cities high enough. Millions of gallons go in the sea. Not just Seattle. Fine them and buy boaters any poop system they want with the money. That would show the fallacy of worrying about the boats compared with the cities. Of course this is very typical, if you are big enough, your crimes dont seem to matter if you are a little guy. Ever wonder how most every congressman gets rich way beyond the salary he claims?
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Old 11-04-2018, 10:26   #25
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Re: Loonies Got Their Way

Personally I don't see what the fuss is about. The basic rule of discharge is 3 miles from land in the ocean. Puget Sound is not the ocean, you already should not be dumping your blackwater tank there. Why they needed a new law is beyond me.

PS is a large body of water to be sure however it is still a mostly enclosed body of water unlike a river which constantly moves all of it's water through the system. In other words, your poop doesn't magically get on the fast super underwater highway to the ocean. It sits there and the issue is human pathogens.

Lastly, who is going to check for compliance? The U.S. Coast Guard will every time they board your boat for a safety inspection or enforcement action as will any law enforcement. Having delivered boats from Seattle to Mexico for 15 years I cannot count the number of times I was boarded for safety inspections at sea and in the bays and one of the very 1st items on their checklist was the holding tank diverter wye valve. So you now have to put a zip tie on it, no big deal. Been doing that for years already as I have operated in areas of NDZ where this is required.
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Old 11-04-2018, 10:39   #26
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Re: Loonies Got Their Way

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I did not see anywhere in the article where it stated or implied this was to protect commercial interests. They said "harvest" which includes sportfishers as well.

I was just basing my comment on this bit:

ďEven small amounts of sewage discharges over or near shellfish beds can cause enough pollution to require harvest closures.Ē

I interpreted that to mean commercial shellfish farms. Admittedly I donít speak American very well so if I got the wrong end of the stick then thanks for correcting me.
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Old 11-04-2018, 10:50   #27
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Re: Loonies Got Their Way

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PS is a large body of water to be sure however it is still a mostly enclosed body of water unlike a river which constantly moves all of it's water through the system. In other words, your poop doesn't magically get on the fast super underwater highway to the ocean. It sits there and the issue is human pathogens.
About 20 years ago, another spill happened in Lake Washington where the single sewage discharge pipe from the East side of Mercer Island broke apart in 30 feet of water where it remained undiscovered for almost a week.
It was theorized that a barge anchor had dragged across it, causing the break.
There is no appreciable current in the area, as it's a lake.
This happened in the summertime when a nearby swimming beach was closed, but MIRACULOUSLY it was opened after only three days.
The gummint pronounced it safe again.
Funny how that works that 3 days after a kajillion gallon output of Mercer Island into 30 feet of water and it's no big deal.

I looked for a link, but couldn't find one.
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Old 11-04-2018, 11:05   #28
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Re: Loonies Got Their Way

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I was just basing my comment on this bit:

ďEven small amounts of sewage discharges over or near shellfish beds can cause enough pollution to require harvest closures.Ē

I interpreted that to mean commercial shellfish farms. Admittedly I donít speak American very well so if I got the wrong end of the stick then thanks for correcting me.
You are correct in your assumption, it's been a "thing" up here for a while now, commercial shellfish beds and sewage issues.
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Old 11-04-2018, 11:38   #29
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Re: Loonies Got Their Way

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Originally Posted by senormechanico View Post
...ElectroScan discharge: 2 PPM which costs an amp hour per flush.

....

Let's say by not using my ElectroScan which puts out 2 PPM and instead, I pump out at a marina during a big rainstorm.
The poop will come back out to Puget Sound in a CSO at a concentration of...let's just say a heck of a lot higher than 2PPM!
First, I've never seen anyone pump out in the rain. So that is a false comparison.

Unfortunately, whoever gave you the 2ppm information was a liar, or at least intentionally told far less than the whole truth. This, summarized from the EPA evaluation of Type 1 heads:

EPA Summary Data (results in mg/L)
Annalyte After Treatment Result EPA Sewage Treatment Standard
BOD5 780 45
TSS 1,000 45
Fecal Coliform < 82 200 (swimming areas)


The data was quite variable, with standard deviations over 100%.

Typical raw sewage, as delivered to a sewage treatment plant is only about 200 ppm BOD, due to dilution with shower water and other low strength waste. Holding tank waste is considerably stronger due to reduced dilution.

The full text:
https://nepis.epa.gov/Exe/ZyNET.exe/...kPage=x&ZyPURL

Needless to say (assuming your understand the treatment chemistry), the Electroscan had zero treatment efficiency for nitrogen and phosphorous.

What the unit did was reduce viable bacteria below 2 ppm, which is admirable. But your comparison with with effluent BOD5 numbers is plainly false, comparing apples to oranges with attempting to say 2 ppm of what or 40 ppm of what.

The Electroscan sterilizes the waste, nothing more. Which may be OK.
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Old 11-04-2018, 11:42   #30
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Re: Loonies Got Their Way

I'd like to hear from Peggie about this.
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