Liferaft Storage, no good choices.

[Lazerbrains]

Originally Posted by CassidyNZ

For those who believe that a wave or even a full roll-over will remove the raft from the deck - dream on.

Please read this account of a rollover in 2018: https://www.cruisingworld.com/story/...then-reunited/

"Neither the stainless rack for the life raft, secured to the deck with a dozen bolts, nor the raft itself were still there."

I would never before dreamed of such a thing until I read this account - it really was an eyeopener.

[rbrazil]

Sal’s Inflatables In Alameda Ca. services/repacks, and sells life rafts and related products. It was the same cost to buy a new one as to have it serviced.

[psk125]

Kiwijohn seems to have a great idea to build a protecting deck over it in the cockpit. It makes the raft easily accessilble: you don’t have to lift 85 pounds up from below with the boat bashing all over the place, or leave the safety of the cockpit to deploy it from the cabin top. If you put it forward near the cabin sill it provides you with a bridge deck that you can sit on while protected by the dodger and reducing the volume of the cockpit. Since it would be higher than the sill it would help keep inadvertent waves out of the boat, too. If you put it aft, near the wheel, it still reduces the volume of the cockpit and gives the helmsman a bigger area to put things (like lunch) down on, or a place for crew to stretch out comfortably on. The setup doesn’t have to be permanent, so when passages are over the raft can be stowed elsewhere. We had a similar setup forward of the wheel for jerrycans of diesel fuel that we carried for a transatlantic trip. When the cans were emptied, they, and the board over them, went away. Hopefully you won’t actually need the raft. KISS.

[Tillsbury]

Originally Posted by Lazerbrains

Please read this account of a rollover in 2018: https://www.cruisingworld.com/story/...then-reunited/

"Neither the stainless rack for the life raft, secured to the deck with a dozen bolts, nor the raft itself were still there."

I would never before dreamed of such a thing until I read this account - it really was an eyeopener.

Same with the boat arriving into NZ last year, the crew ended up jumping into the water and triggering their PLB, amazing speed of rescue services resulted in 3 of the 4 of them surviving.

I would never want a liferaft out on deck. The extremely rare chance of it being ripped off is exactly that rare time that you might really need it. Mine’s in the cockpit locker, and on overnight or longer passages I make sure it’s not got anything stopping it being pulled out and deployed with one hand.

[Michael Cobbe]

Fom the the picture you have an aft raling our lliferaft was attachd by a mounting cradle to the starboard quarter. The rope that depolys the liferaft was tied to the aft railiinfg, pull it to deploy it.

[GarthGregory]

I have a similar problem on my 47 ft Beneteau 473 , my 10 x man life raft , hard case - almost fills ,one of the cockpit lockers and is really heavy . I need the locker space , an 8 x man raft is almost the same size / weight . A friend on his 44 ft yacht , had his 8 x man raft ,( hard case ) ripped off the coachroof .This from a dedicated mounting ,built just ahead of the companion way . This in a storm in the Med , off a Greek Island .
I think it must be -quickly / easily accessible so - deck- cockpit -pushpit rails , possibly a purpose locker built into the Transom , my option .If it is not secure and easily/quickly available , one might as not have one . A dedicated locker would also protect the raft to a greater degree . All depends on available layout and space .

[tml]

Faced the same issues and tried various solutions as you have suggested but was never comfortable that in adverse conditions the raft could be deployed easily and safely.
My solution was to extend and strengthen the stainless steel railing at the stern 4 feet on each side, at the same the cradle for the raft was built in to the stern rail.
All in all not cheap but one of the best improvements we ever made
1) To deploy the raft pull one pin and the cradle opens and the raft will fall over the stern
2) The extension of the stainless steel rail the full length of the cockpit makes the cockpit very secure, In bad weather holding on to the railing is no small comfort.
3) The new railing allows extending the Bimini frame to the total width of the boat.This difference alone justified the expense,
Tom

[sanibel sailor]

My boat being smaller and an older design does not have sufficient transom width for the raft as I have a Monitor windvane.

[CassidyNZ]

Originally Posted by Lazerbrains

Please read this account of a rollover in 2018: https://www.cruisingworld.com/story/...then-reunited/

"Neither the stainless rack for the life raft, secured to the deck with a dozen bolts, nor the raft itself were still there."

I would never before dreamed of such a thing until I read this account - it really was an eyeopener.

Not that I wish to cast aspersions on folks I’ve never met but . . . .

Firstly, who would use “a dozen” bolts to secure a frame as small as a liferaft housing to a boat? And what was on the other side of whatever they were fastened to? How often have I seen bolts through thin fibreglass with just a nut and standard (or even no) flat washer on the inside.

So my liferaft is secured with four 8mm stainless steel ring bolts that have 3mm 50x50 doubler plates inside. Each one of those bolts can sustain a “proof” load of 3500kgs so that is 14000kgs in total. My whole boat weighs 12500kgs. To pull the doubler plates through 12mm of solid fibreglass would take more energy than even that.

Seat belt webbing has a breaking strength of 2800kgs under shock load conditions. So my four straps provide 11000kgs of support, again, nearly the same as the mass of my whole boat.

The life raft which weighs 37kgs gives a ratio of 95:1 on each of the eyebolts or 380:1 on all four. Now I ask myself: how is it possible that enough pressure can be placed on an article as small as a liferaft by a passing wave that will produce 3500kgs of load on a bolt? Or 2800kgs on a strap? As a comparison, you could probably take that same liferaft and tow it through the water at 20kn on a single piece of 19mm nylon rope. There simply isn’t enough surface area to produce 14000kgs of load.

FYI I have actually been in a “squash zone” with 80kn sustained wind and 45ft seas, where my dodger and canopy was blown away “like newspaper in the wind”, where the boat was knocked flat twice with the mast head underwater (destroyed the anemometer at the masthead), where my wife was lying in her sleeping bag on the roof of the cabin. Been there, done that, my liferaft is still today where it was then.

So forgive my scepticism.

Incidentally, having watched/read the account of the Kalaeren, I wasn’t able to determine where their liferaft was mounted (not that the coverage was exhaustive). It wasn’t on the aft deck and I couldn’t see it on the foredeck either.

[CarinaPDX]

@CassidyNZ: While I agree with your main point - that a deck-mounted liferaft should be able to withstand the forces of a rollover - I would point out that the number of bolts is not the point. More small bolts or fewer large bolts is no issue: the bolts are unlikely to be the failure point. If large enough backing plates are used, and the coach roof is of decent construction, it should hold together. Cutting corners on backing plates seems to be very common...

I am looking up at my arrangement right now, and trying to remember the unseen details. Of the four mounting points, the two inboard ones use 4 each flat head 3/16" or 1/4" bolts, from the inside of the rack through the teak block, coach roof, and backing plate. The outboard two mounts are taller, and there are four of the same bolts through the rack and teak blocks, and the blocks themselves are bolted down through the roof and backing plate with what looks like 3/8" bolts. So through the coach roof are 10 bolts in total, plus 8 bolts above the deck attaching the rack to the outboard blocks. I could well have done the outboard ones like the inboard ones and had 16 bolts, and if I could have found long enough ones where I was located at the time that is likely what I would have done. (I confess to not remembering all of the thinking behind the arrangement - pretty much everything on deck had to be placed with consideration for everything else on deck). If I could have bolted the rack flat to the roof there would have been 16 bolts - not for additional strength but for matching the machining of the rack. Although the pattern of 4 bolts caused me to use larger, square backing plates than the single large bolts with circular backing plates.

I'm just making the point that the number of bolts is less an issue of strength - the total strength of all of the bolts should in any case be far beyond what is needed - and more about dealing with whatever holes have already been drilled. Otherwise I totally agree. And the case of a failure could very well have been the result of using just washers, which is not a good idea at all.

Greg

[Lazerbrains]

Originally Posted by CassidyNZ

Not that I wish to cast aspersions on folks I’ve never met but . . . .

Nonetheless, proof that it can and does happen, as two others have chimed in now to say they have seen the same. Furthermore, if the forces of a rollover are enough to break bare masts, I don't doubt that they can rip off a liferaft. At minimum it certainly would give me pause as to the various stern-rail mountings. It certainly would be good information if we could get ahold of the Carey's to find out how it was mounted. As for me, I will not take the risk and will stick with my valise which is right next to the companionway. I have no problems getting it to deck quickly, and if the day comes where I am unable to lift it up to deck, then I am probably to old to be sailing anymore.

[Hoodsail]

Sanibel, I have same boat....almost, no travelor & mainsheet is rigged to the helm stainless steel frame so i have a bit more room just forward of your dodger. i borrowed a friend's life raft in 6 man hard case and lashed it to the deck on top of the mid-hatch using the handrails on either side. Was heading to bermuda and concerned with taking water over the bow, which we did, and having the life raft that far forward. Wouldn't stow below as man-handling 85 pounds on deck is work, altho in a situation requiring deployment would expect your adrenaline will be flowing. Foredeck is just too wide potentially allowing raft to move regardless of how secure you make it. Lastly, you should've bought a 45.5!

[CassidyNZ]

Originally Posted by Lazerbrains

Nonetheless, proof that it can and does happen, as two others have chimed in now to say they have seen the same. Furthermore, if the forces of a rollover are enough to break bare masts, I don't doubt that they can rip off a liferaft. At minimum it certainly would give me pause as to the various stern-rail mountings. It certainly would be good information if we could get ahold of the Carey's to find out how it was mounted. As for me, I will not take the risk and will stick with my valise which is right next to the companionway. I have no problems getting it to deck quickly, and if the day comes where I am unable to lift it up to deck, then I am probably to old to be sailing anymore.

Don’t mean to belabour the point but when your boat suddenly gets a strong gust of wind from the side, the wind against the mast will cause the boat to heel over. How much heel would there be if the mast was not there and the life raft was mounted on the deck? I would venture a big fat zero. You can’t compare the two. Of course a roll-over breaks a mast, the resistance is massively bigger than a deck mounted liferaft and a mast when subjected to sideways loading is not very strong. Note that in a roll-over it is rare for rigging wires to break, only the mast section. Oh, and the boat in the article was not rolled, just knocked down.

Your ability to get your liferaft up on deck from down below is not only subject to the very slow and manageable process of getting older. As I said earlier, it is also subject to the instant action of breaking your wrist (or any other part of your body). Try to imagine getting just yourself from the cockpit to the saloon and back with a compound fracture to your lower right leg, let alone with a 70lb liferaft. Not so easy anymore.

As said, I don’t want to cast aspersions on folks I’ve never met but I know I would find the above scenario really difficult. YMMV.

[CassidyNZ]

@ CarinaPDX:
From an engineering perspective, having one set of bolts through the coachroof and another to the blocks that are thus secured, does not provide strength equal to the sum of all the bolts. You either rely on the bolts in the coachroof or the bolts in the wooden blocks. Which set will fail first? I reckon 8mm (3/8”) through the teak blocks - the blocks will fail, not the bolts.

So two things are relevant. First, the collective tensile strength of four 4mm (1/4”) bolts is about the same as one 8mm bolt. Second, you have 10 holes through your coachroof to create potential leaks, I have just 4.

But back to the point. The installation on Kalaeren failed because it was not well engineered, not because the boat got knocked down. (IMHO)

[Tillsbury]

Don't forget that a knockdown leading to a dismasting will render nice simple calculations worthless when you have miles of SS wire collecting all the deck hardware and scooping it off the deck...