Level headed ketch under full sail!

[scoobert]

Sailing a ketch - YouTube

hope you enjoy. not something you see every day.
i was solo, in long island sound.

[ryon]

Feels good! What do you mean by "level headed"? Does that refer to the rig?

[GILow]

Lovely, and inspiring.

But I'm going to be a bit of a bore and assume you are interested in constructive feedback?

Might I suggest that the luff on the main, and possibly the mizzen were a bit loose. Also, you seemed to be spilling wind from the top of the main suggesting either main sheet was a bit loose or perhaps the traveller on the main needed to come outboard a little more to get more downforce on the end of the boom.

I think you mentioned something about the set of the main, but I could not quite make out what you were saying?

Certainly looks a lot more promising than an older post where I think you had the topping lift wrapped around the main, or something like it. I sympathised completely from my first attempts to get all the sails looking like they do in the brochures. And hey, I even accidently hoisted a jib upside down once. After dad had stopped laughing he warned me to pull it down pronto, as it is considered a sign of a yacht in distress.


Matt

[GILow]

Originally Posted by ryon

Feels good! What do you mean by "level headed"? Does that refer to the rig?

I'm guessing it either refers to the fact that the boat was pleasantly vertical, not on it's ear, or possible to the fact that the deckhouse roof seems to be missing, or the bimni... not sure, but I feel there should be something attached to those windows....

Did the boat get a "crew cut" recently?

Matt

[scoobert]

Originally Posted by ryon

Feels good! What do you mean by "level headed"? Does that refer to the rig?

so i took me 3 months to find out what rig i had. i contacted a rigger in MD that had been rigging for over 30 years. he said that i own a level headed ketch. being that the rear mast was in front of the rudder, and they were both the same height. for a while i thought i had a schooner.

[scoobert]

Originally Posted by GILow

Lovely, and inspiring.

But I'm going to be a bit of a bore and assume you are interested in constructive feedback?

Might I suggest that the luff on the main, and possibly the mizzen were a bit loose. Also, you seemed to be spilling wind from the top of the main suggesting either main sheet was a bit loose or perhaps the traveller on the main needed to come outboard a little more to get more downforce on the end of the boom.

I think you mentioned something about the set of the main, but I could not quite make out what you were saying?

Certainly looks a lot more promising than an older post where I think you had the topping lift wrapped around the main, or something like it. I sympathised completely from my first attempts to get all the sails looking like they do in the brochures. And hey, I even accidently hoisted a jib upside down once. After dad had stopped laughing he warned me to pull it down pronto, as it is considered a sign of a yacht in distress.


Matt

this was my second day sailing, ever. no lessons, no instruction, and the PO really had no idea how to sail.

the block on the main traveler was broken. it had to stay in that position for the trip, and i didnt realize the mizzen had its own traveler until a few days later.
i also had issues with the main and mizzen halyard. they are wire/rope, and the wire hits the winch. so i think they were a bit slack.
i will be shortening them all up before i head out this fall.
i never knew the jib upside down was a distress signal. useful info.

[GILow]

Originally Posted by scoobert

this was my second day sailing, ever. no lessons, no instruction, and the PO really had no idea how to sail.

the block on the main traveler was broken. it had to stay in that position for the trip, and i didnt realize the mizzen had its own traveler until a few days later.
i also had issues with the main and mizzen halyard. they are wire/rope, and the wire hits the winch. so i think they were a bit slack.
i will be shortening them all up before i head out this fall.
i never knew the jib upside down was a distress signal. useful info.

Great effort for your second day! I started sailing when I was four and I still do worse than that some days.

I am not sure about the jib thing could be a dad fact, and you know how bad those can be.

Before you go shortening those halyards it might be best to check they were rolled onto the winch cleanly. If I just crank mine they will bunch up and foul the winch covers before the sail is completely up. But if I guide the wire on cleanly as I go there's just enough room. I always worry about shortening any line or halyard that has been installed on a well setup boat, there may be a combination of sails, wind, rig that needs the extra length. That being said my monster MPS sheet is about two more sails from being chopped down to a bit over half the current size. It's ridiculous, I actually wonder if the PO forgot the MPS only needs one sheet and ordered twice the length he needed.

Happy travels,

Matt

[scoobert]

according to the PO the boat was once rigged with everything leading aft.
so the wire length would not have been an issue if it went to a block, but i see no evidence of this with the exception of a massive pile of blocks, and misc items below deck. i dont even know what a ratcheting block would be used for?

i have looked into lengthening the hallyards, ect, but all that i found says no.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by scoobert

so i took me 3 months to find out what rig i had. i contacted a rigger in MD that had been rigging for over 30 years. he said that i own a level headed ketch. being that the rear mast was in front of the rudder, and they were both the same height. for a while i thought i had a schooner.

You do have a schooner. A schooner's most forward mast is equal to or shorter than the next mast aft, which is the mainmast on a schooner. The forward-most mast is the foremast.

With a ketch, the forward-most mast is the mainmast.

It's not really important, but "level-headed ketch" is not a term which is in general use. I believe your rigger may have just made it up. Which is ok -- you can call you rig whatever you want -- it's your boat. But most sailors would call it a schooner.

[scoobert]

so it is safe to say that i have 3 reef points on each the main and mizzen?

[scoobert]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

You do have a schooner. A schooner's most forward mast is equal to or shorter than the next mast aft, which is the mainmast on a schooner. The forward-most mast is the foremast.

With a ketch, the forward-most mast is the mainmast.

It's not really important, but "level-headed ketch" is not a term which is in general use. I believe your rigger may have just made it up. Which is ok -- you can call you rig whatever you want -- it's your boat. But most sailors would call it a schooner.

here is what he said. i know its not of great importance, but i like to be factual.

I think this is a level headed ketch instead of a knockabout (or a schooner with no sprit). As long as the aft mast is fwd of the rudder post, otherwise it is a yawl. I say this only because it appears that the forward mast is actually the main mast not the foremast. It appears that the forward mast's boom is longer as well. Hope that helps.

Jim

[Fiveslide]

Originally Posted by scoobert

this was my second day sailing, ever. no lessons, no instruction, and the PO really had no idea how to sail.

the block on the main traveler was broken. it had to stay in that position for the trip, and i didnt realize the mizzen had its own traveler until a few days later.
i also had issues with the main and mizzen halyard. they are wire/rope, and the wire hits the winch. so i think they were a bit slack.
i will be shortening them all up before i head out this fall.
i never knew the jib upside down was a distress signal. useful info.

Can you get enough wraps on the winch that some of the rope gets on the winch as well? That's what I would try until you can switch to all rope halyards.

I knew someone was going to bust your chops about sail trim! You did great. Heck, If not for my wife i don't think i would have ever figured out how to hoist the sails on my first boat.

[scoobert]

Originally Posted by Fiveslide

Can you get enough wraps on the winch that some of the rope gets on the winch as well? That's what I would try until you can switch to all rope halyards.

I knew someone was going to bust your chops about sail trim! You did great. Heck, If not for my wife i don't think i would have ever figured out how to hoist the sails on my first boat.

oh goodness my sail trim was lousy. i didnt even have the main up the entire way. my genoa was too tight to the boat, and i didnt even have a boomvang on either boom.

being a pilot (see youtube acct) i know i physics of flight. so i applied the same to sailing. make the wing shape, sail 45 degrees off, keel keeps the boat moving forward. at this point if it was blowing 45 knots, i would not have known what to do except motor, lol. i still only understand the concept of reefing. i will try it before we leave. not taking the sail cover off for that.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by scoobert

here is what he said. i know its not of great importance, but i like to be factual.

"I think this is a level headed ketch instead of a knockabout (or a schooner with no sprit). As long as the aft mast is fwd of the rudder post, otherwise it is a yawl. I say this only because it appears that the forward mast is actually the main mast not the foremast. It appears that the forward mast's boom is longer as well. Hope that helps."

OK, now it's more clear what he meant. He did not mean that "level-headed ketch" is an actual term, he meant that it's a ketch which happens to have a mizzen equal in height to the mainmast.

His argument is that the forward boom is longer than the after one, so the forward-most mast must be the mainmast. There is something to that, I think.

If you accept that idea -- that it can't be a schooner because the forward-most mast carries more sail -- then, you could also call it "a weird ketch with an unusually big mizzen".

By this argument, your rig could even be a ketch if the after-most mast were taller than the forward mast -- so long as the boom were longer and sail area greater. That would be even weirder -- "a schooner-like rig which is however actually a ketch, since the forward-most mast is the mainmast."

I would probably stick to conventional terminology, myself, and call it "a schooner rig which is, however, ketch-like since the foremast carries more sail than the mainmast". For most people, ketch or schooner will be defined by the relative heights of the masts.

For you, the main thing really will be how do you call your masts. Is the aftermost mast the mainmast, or the mizzen? I would probably call it the mainmast.


As to the position of the after-most mast -- I disagree with your rigger. Your rig could never be a yawl, because a yawl is only arbitrarily, by old racing rules, defined as a two-masted vessel with mizzen behind the rudder post. In essence, a yawl is a two-masted vessel with a mizzen sail so small that it is good really only for balance, not intended as a significant source of drive, and the position of the mast is not actually the main thing. Your boat could never be that, even if the after-most mast were behind the rudder post.


Tayana made quite a few schooners, mostly 55/58 feet. The rig, like yours, has equal height masts. Tayana calls them "staysail schooners". Your rig looks like the same thing to me. Do you have a staysail? A wonderful sail which is perhaps the best thing about a split rig. The other cool sail you can use with a split rig is a fisherman.


Here's more info: How To Tell A Ketch From A Schooner

[scoobert]

i do have a staysail.
here are the two blocks for it on the front of the rear most mast.


i looked, and looked, and looked, and have no idea how to rig it. there is nothing online, or in any of my books. thou i do possess the sail.