Lesson learned about cheap rope - what should I buy?

[jimTheSailorMan]

I have a small American Fiberglass 2+2 MiniTon sailboat from the early 1970's

I was using rope(line) purchased from the local home supply store for the main halyard and found that besides it stretching, it also felt like it was going to break. Looking at the rope after sailing, any parts that went through a sheave looked like it was a few years old from abrasion / stretching. I started with some 3/8 and went up to 5/8 but that didn't help much.

Now, I want to buy the right stuff. I also noticed that the cleats on the mast (3) are very small - they handle the 3/8 better than the 5/8 but the 3/8 cheap rope isn't strong enough.

So I think I need some diameter less than 5/8 but much better quality.

Also wondering if the length of the mast is x feet - and I need about 2 * x feet - wondering how much excess to buy? Does good rope wear too and will I want to move the wear point from time to time? Around the jib sheet area - there is 1 sheave for the jib line, the front stay connector and cable and the halyard line going up and down. This area seems congested and can bind. Should the halyard and jib run inside the mast?

Saw this on West Marine outlet (https://www.westmarine.com/outlet/buy/new-england-ropes--v-100-vectran-double-braid-color-coded--P002_071_005_003?recordNum=10) but wondered if this is overkill?

Also, thanks to everyone for responding to my previous posts. Have been out 5 times this summer so far and seem to be learning the basics. Very happy with my new hobby.

Note the following pictures are equivalent diameter as I used but I threw away the cheap hardware store rope.


Here's a large rope picture. Feels too large for this cleat.



Here's a small diamater rope picture.

[danielamartindm]

Originally Posted by jimTheSailorMan

I have a small American Fiberglass 2+2 MiniTon sailboat from the early 1970's

I was using rope purchased from the local home supply store for the main halyard and found that besides it stretching, it also felt like it was going to break. Looking at the rope after sailing, any parts that went through a sheave looked like it was a few years old from abrasion / stretching. I started with some 3/8 and went up to 5/8 but that didn't help much.

Now, I want to buy the right stuff. I also noticed that the cleats on the mast (3) are very small - they handle the 3/8 better than the 5/8 but the 3/8 cheap rope isn't strong enough.

So I think I need some diameter less than 5/8 but much better quality.

Also wondering if the length of the mast is x feet - and I need about 2 * x feet - wondering how much excess to buy? Does good rope wear too and will I want to move the wear point from time to time?

Saw this on West Marine outlet (https://www.westmarine.com/outlet/buy/new-england-ropes--v-100-vectran-double-braid-color-coded--P002_071_005_003?recordNum=10) but wondered if this is overkill?

Also, thanks to everyone for responding to my previous posts. Have been out 5 times this summer so far and seem to be learning the basics. Very happy with my new hobby.

Hi Jim,
As you've seen, line is not the place to save money. The cheap polyester stuff you can buy in Home Depot deforms to the point of being functionally useless, has low breaking strength, and a memory that makes it a pia to use in most applications. As you've also noticed, the boat hardware pretty much dictates the size of line you'll use. All line wears, and chafe protection and the establishment of fair leads is crucial. Do periodically move the wear points if it's easy to do, and make casual inspections of your running rigging a routine.

[Suijin]

That line is overkill. Get some NE Ropes Sta-set at less than half the price and you’ll be good. You could go with Sta-set X, even less stretch but it may be overkill too. 3/8” is fine so long as it’s not hard on your hands being that skinny. Line and cleats and sheaves should be sized as a system.

As for abrasion, check your sheaves and make sure they are smooth, properly sized, and turning freely.

[vonotto]

I use that rope to hold my pool cover over the winter (get it from Lowes) and it is only good for one winter. When I remove it in the spring after only 5 months of sitting there not moving it falls apart in my hands. I think your best and safest bet is to bite the bullet save up and buy the material that is made for the specific job.

I would not play with mine or others safety with that stuff.

[jimTheSailorMan]

Here is a picture of the congestion at the jib sheave / front stay connection area. Wondering if I could run the jib line all the way to the top of the mast FROM THE INSIDE OF THE MAST then down to the jib sheave. Same with the main halyard - inside the mast and then down to the head of the mainsail.





And here is the top of the mast. Can this handle two lines inside the mast and then out the sheaves?

[jimTheSailorMan]

Originally Posted by vonotto

... safest bet is to bite the bullet save up and buy the material that is made for the specific job.

Yes - looking for a suggestion - maybe a url link to the right stuff?

[jimTheSailorMan]

Originally Posted by Suijin

Get some NE Ropes Sta-set

Is this what you mean - what diameter should I use?

[Suijin]

That’s the good stuff. Use what your sheaves (pulley wheels) are sized for. 3/8” is likely strong enough for a 17’ boat. Thicker is easier in your hands but a pair of sailing gloves is cheaper than retooling the sheaves and cleats lol.

I would not run your lines inside the mast. You would need to modify the mast with internal sheaves or guides. It’s not worth the trouble.

[jimTheSailorMan]

Originally Posted by Suijin

That’s the good stuff. Use what your sheaves (pulley wheels) are sized for. 3/8” is likely strong enough for a 17’ boat.

How many feet should I use/cut for the main halyard?. The mast is 22.5 feet from bottom of cleat to top of sheave. How much spare length is good without getting in the way?

[Dave22q]

46' is fine. gives you a foot to wrap the cleat with the sail down. an internet search for halyards will save you some money. thin is harder on the hands but a rag solves that and is only an issue when tensioning the sail when you st out. for sheets, thicker is preferable as you handle those a lot.
any marine supply store can help you with this, advice is free.
the best thing any newbe can do is read a lot.

[Suijin]

Originally Posted by Dave22q

46' is fine.

I would throw in an extra 6’ feet. First, he may want to stow the halyard attaching it to a rail or deck fitting. Also with extra length if the top chafes at the sheave he can cut a foot off retie and keep sailing. Will maximize the life of the line.

[Kelkara]

Originally Posted by jimTheSailorMan

Is this what you mean - what diameter should I use?

3/8" is bigger than you need on that boat ... in fact I expect that was half your problem ... The abrasion where the rope goes round the sheaves is probably because you were trying to run too large a line through them (I bet they weren't made for 3/8 and certainly not 5/8). My boat is much bigger than yours and it's mostly rigged with 5/16" but also some 1/4" lines ... I only use 3/8 for the sheets, because it's more comfortable in the hands.


I'm going to guess that the other half of your problem (the strechiness) is that the cheap hardware-store rope you bought was nylon and not polyester ... you want polyester rope ... it will make a world of difference.


Just make sure you use a good polyester line that is correctly sized for your fittings, and you'll be fine.

[Chuck Hawley]

Hi,

Good questions, and common questions among relatively new sailors.

Here are some answers based on 30 years of helping sailors find the right line for their boats...

1. Your boat is small and light. Virtually every line on it should be either 1/4" or 5/16", unless the line is constant held in your hand. In that case, larger line is desirable.
2. Virtually all uses for running rigging on your boat can be handled by New England Ropes Sta-Set or a similar line from a yachting ropes manufacturer (Samson, etc.)
3. While it's true that halyards are roughy twice the distance from the halyard cleat to wherever they turn back down the mast (masthead sheaves, or jib halyard block), it's handy to have additional line. You may, for example, want to use the main halyard to support the boom when the sail is not hoisted, or you may want to secure the jib halyard to the jib tack to keep it from banging in the wind.
4. So, perhaps twice the hoist and four feet would be adequate.
5. If you are suffering from chafe, you either have a sheave that isn't turning, or a sharp object that intrudes on the path of the line. You just don't have enough tension or movement on your boat to wear out a line. fix the source of chafe.
6. Don't use lines so large that they touch the sides of the block (called the "cheeks") or the sides of the masthead. Adds friction, and it's telling you that your line is too large.
7. If, and this is a big if, you were to want higher-tech line (generally using a fiber like Spectra, Dyneema, Technora, Kevlar, or the like), and I don't think you need to, the only place to use it would be your halyards. You could use very small diameter Spectra-cored lines for your two halyards to reduce the stretch.
8. While you can shop close-outs and bargain bins, small boats have relatively small diameter, short lines. Heck, you can buy at retail and not break the bank. Take the time to color-code the lines for easier identification and training other family members to sail.

Have fun, wear a life jacket, and learn the rules of the road. It's a great sport.

Chuck Hawley

[roverhi]

Just to reiterate what Chuck said, 5/16" should be the size for a halyard on a 16' boat. That's the size of the halyards on my 28' though they are mostly dyneema cored for low stretch. 5/16" is a good compromise for size/strength and comfort to use. Samson makes a soft jacketed all dacron double braid called Trophy Braid that is easy on the hands. I'm switching all my sheets over to that. 1/4" would be fine but it's just too hard on the hands for hauling on a line with force. Okay for traveler controls etc. If you can't handle 5/16" then go up to 3/8" but it's way overkill for strength.

[GrowleyMonster]

A proper yacht braid is fine, from any major maker. For halyards a low stretch line is nice. For sheets, nylon is great and cost effective. Sta set is good stuff, yeah. For sheets go with 7/16" or so for better grip unless it has to go through some very small blocks or jam cleats or whatever. Often in such a small boat you will be playing the sheets in hand. Halyards at 3/8" or 5/16" would be fine, a good balance between more strength than you could possibly need but low cost, and easy handling. You want the line to fit your sheaves, though. If 5/16" is too fat for the sheaves then go down a size. Cut the fingertips off a pair of gloves for easy handling of ropes if you have tender paws. I recommend regular three strand twist nylon, for mooring lines. These will give you plenty of stretch. A storm tide might rip the cleats right off your boat, or submerge your boat, if there is no give in your dock lines. Also if they are too big, they won't stretch, and you can't get multiple lines on one cleat. 3/8" nylon three strand would be ideal for tying up your boat. Garden hose makes good chafing gear for such small rope. Three strand is very simple to splice, too. Look at one properly made eye splice in three strand, and you should be able to do one yourself. That's how I learned.