Legitimate Bluewater Question

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Krogensailor

"deploying sea anchors is fraught with issues especially on modern cruisers." When you say modern what is your def of modern? I have a heavy 84 cutter, wide beam 13' shallow draft 3' board up, 6.5' down. Is is what you mean by modern or are you referring to very modern fin keel hulls? It would seem that a boat like mine would be a candidate for lying a hull whereas a fin keel may be inviting disaster doing so

My one and only experience, was (a) most boats have very poor attachment points forward, lack a decent Samson post or any other attachment point. Very difficult to retrieve, really needs a complex setup to stop the boat pointing "directly" into the wind. And feedback seems it can put enormous strains on the rudder if she falls back.


I much prefer stern drag devices, to slow and not stop the boat.

Yes I was referring to the great generality of modern shallow flat bottomed hull, lightly immersed hull, fin and spade rudder. This type of underwater profile is very good in dynamic conditions, good hydrodynamic control. good downwind control, agile and responsive. However in static Heave to situations , not so good, my experience was that in every situation I could Heave too reliably , I in fact could simply also just sail.


dave

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by scotty c-m

Situation B could happen to any of us. Hope it dosen't!! My thoughts: Always have sails ready to deploy. Motors crap out, often at the most disadvantagous times. Rough water shakes up tanks and stuff fouls the filters. B is obviously on a lee shore, therefore in this particular case heaving-to and drougs (nor drugs ) are not appropriate. If offshore, eithor would have advantages, depending on sea state. I also like to have the engine running if I'm in a difficult situation - depends on a lot of circumstances (amount of fuel, sea state etc.). I agree with a privious post(s) about keeping off shore until the dash for a harbor - or just keeping offshore. I love my engine (Yanmar 4JH4), but NEVER trust it near shore. Same with autopilots. This is not a boat design issue, it is a combination of maintenance, seamanship and fate.

In my experience, there are many systems that fail on boats, including sail handling, I remember a situation where the main was all ready to lift, and when the time came, The halyard jammed in the sheave ( it turned out the sheave collapsed in the crane box. The main couldn't be lifted. The engine saved the day in that case.

Motors dont "crap out", they crap out because boaters don't maintain the system. There is for example absolutely no reason to have "crap" in your tanks , so that rough seas can agitate it. On my beneteau, she had plastic fuel tanks with inspection holes. Maintained in pristine condition, Big dual racors ( I always add these). engine never failed in 5 years in all conditions. ( sail systems never failed either). But I am a meticulous maintainer of systems and replace wear items , not just when it breaks.

dave

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

Fully agree with the experienced observations made by Estarzinger, and Ann T Cate on the 50Knt video

Also as Boatman said, “Its all down to forethought and planning”

There is only “ONE” legitimate question that every sailor needs to continually ask.
Am I proactively prepared to minimize risk if (this??) fails/happens now in (these??) conditions with my crew?

When you stop asking that question, you are putting yourself and others in danger, whether blue or brown water sailing

to elaborate on your view

my own thinking goes like

(a) Keep the crew safe

(b) then keep the boat safe

(c) either fix it/maintain it or learn to live without it

(d) Always have a backup plan

(e) try and spot event cascades

dave

[colemj]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

The concept of an Auxiallary engine is out of the past

Our boat has an auxiliary engine - some days it is the port engine and some days it is the starboard engine…

Mark

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

I am guessing she meant a "2 sigma wave" . . . .eg an infrequent really big one . . . .al la the wave in the Low Speed Chase incident

Ive read a few reports on the "Low Speed Chase" incident, I simply view racers as lunatics anyway as Ive been involved in running many offshore race weeks in several locations and seen in the heat of a race, crazy tactics that often severely compromise safety. The cutting close to rocks in big swells is a very common "madness". Mostly they succeed and laugh at it in the club bar afterwards, Now and again, I've seen it do badly wrong, upto including the total loss of the vessel.

I do not regard racers in the heat of a race as functional rational beings in a lot of cases. !!

Dave

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

, I simply view racers as lunatics anyway a . . .

I do not regard racers in the heat of a race as functional rational beings in a lot of cases. !!

But it is helpful to have some "lunatics" pushing the edge . . .because they point out exactly where the edge is, by occasionally falling over it. That is helpful for 'the rest of us'. I learned a lot studying the low speed chase incident. I now know a lot more about how to judge the situation, and where the 'edge' is and what the actual risks are. I can make better informed decisions in the future.

I found even the Aegean incident (a much more stupid incident) quite helpful, especially when I am single-handing, as a graphic reminder and 'wake up call' (there's a joke there if you know the details of the incident).

We are going to agree to disagree on heading to harbor in severe weather. I believe we can agree it depends on the harbor (obviously not, for instance, if it has a bar with huge breaking waves) and the weather. But I seem to believe it is safer (if well executed) more frequently/commonly than you seem to think.

We were caught in a deep low near the Falklands, with winds and waves on the back side expected to be extremely severe, and I set course for Stanley harbor. I though (and still think) it would have been preferred to being caught in huge breaking waves. It turned out the weather abruptly changed and moderated and we turned back to our original destination (Fremantle). We were heading toward the Tasi west coast in 50kts with pretty decent size waves. I asked a yachting friend where we could pull in and he said nowhere and to stand off - but looking at the charts and pilot I found Port Davie, protected by islands called 'breaksea island", which looked and sounded pretty good and turned out to be excellent. You surf in, and pull in behind the island where the waves disappear and the entrance is 'calm' (low fetch wind waves only).

I think the Captain of the Bounty believed way too much 'the ship is safer at sea', and he would have been much much better and safer heading into a safe harbor, even after the weather got bad.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

How do you folks feel about motorsailing during the heavy winds and blowing swell? We've heard from the motor and not sail group, and the sail and not motor crowd. We spend so much time successfully motorsailing around the Med. due to lack of wind. Would motorsailing under storm sails be the answer? Seems like it might help with steering. Your opinions?

'Just a shot in the dark to get the thread back on topic.

Although I clean my tanks out every 4 years or so, and know they're spotless, I strongly prefer not to have the motor on in heavy weather. I don't think that it is without risk to have the boat being thrown around and the lube oil doing God knows what, when on top of it you might not hear something funny happening, or maybe even the low oil press alarm. I can imagine a situation where you want more drive than you can get from your heavily reefed sails alone, and be willing to risk it, but I personally have never been in such a situation. You gradually lose your ability to sail upwind as you reef down and the sea state gets up, but the motor won't get you upwind either, beyond a certain sea state, so the utility of your motor in heavy weather seems to me to be limited in any case.

50 knots of wind where I sail looks like video A, unless it's been blowing for days. That sea state is not all that bad, and I would do exactly what the guy in the video is doing - go downwind with a bit of headsail out. In that sea state its not really even uncomfortable. Like that you can get a lot of speed on and apparent wind drops into a comfortable range. This works beautifully as long as the waves haven't piled up to such an extent that you start to surf out of control, but In the video it appears that there is a long way to go yet.

Going back to the original question: naturally, who wouldn't prefer to be in a heavy, large, hand-made cruiser like the Discovery 55 in the vid, or your boat, or mine, in such conditions? But I don't think sailing downwind in 55 knots of wind and the depicted sea state is a huge challenge in a Hunter 38, either, if you have basic skills and plenty of sea room. Video B involves land, nowhere to be seen in video A - a crucial difference.

[goboatingnow]

Like you Evans, the Devil is in the detail. perhaps I am conditioned by sailing the coats of UK, Ireland, Atlantic France and Spain, where lots of approaches to harbours on a lee shore are fraught. not to then add in tidal range. I remember vidily trying to gauge the entrance to Gijon marina, with a big sea up my arse and wonderingly if my keel would hit the bottom.

When I mean harbours by the way , I mean harbours . ducking behind islands etc is a bit different and is a attic Ive used from time to time ( North of Bayona for example)

Equally I agree , I am terribly suspicious of all dogma like " the ship is safer at sea"

I suspect we are only sheets of paper apart of this aspect.

The reasons I said what I said about racers is that they "sometimes" take decisions that bear no relation to the sailing circumstances and sometimes they pay for that , often because they are above average competency , they succeed , now and then they don't.
dave

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Going back to the original question: naturally, who wouldn't prefer to be in a heavy, large, hand-made cruiser like the Discovery 55 in the vid, or your boat, or mine, in such conditions? But I don't think sailing downwind in 55 knots of wind and the depicted sea state is a huge challenge in a Hunter 38, either, if you have basic skills and plenty of sea room. Video B involves land, nowhere to be seen in video A - a crucial difference.

I didn't intend to make a vessel comparison, and the thread direction is so far heading the right way. By all accounts, the Hunter 38 looks to be well-prepared of an outing with the extra jerry cans on deck, but things went terribly wrong, possibly, maybe the skipper's decision to head for the harbor with his sails furled.... a cascade of issues. I don't know... 'wasn't there. Plus, where is his anchor? 'Just looking for ideas to share with others who might find themselves in a similar situation.

I was a passenger on our Oyster delivery to Guernsey two summers ago, when the Delivery Captain decided it best to take shelter in Dover Harbor due to an unexpected force 8. Speaking for myself at the time, I'd never encoutered those sorts of conditions, and couldn't believe the size of those protective breakwaters and the harbor gate at Dover when we arrived. I know now that those conditions around the UK are not that uncommon, but for most of us fair-weather sailers, the advice from those more experienced is most welcome.

Keep the suggestions coming.

[goboatingnow]

I don't think Video A is in any way a testimony to the boat or the skipper. Its being handled "reasonably well" and most boats of that size will handle the conditions exactly the same.


Video B, I don't know enough about, but one thing that rankles is things like " head for the harbor with his sails furled" comments. why ? , because in real life many things conspire to arrive at what , at the time , was a reasonable set of decisions, Many many people , myself included, do not enter harbours with sail up. ( and in many harbours its illegal to sail) , The SOP for entering harbours is usually to round up outside remove sail and enter. Some times I enter with a pinned main, others I enter with the main down etc. Yes nothing is put away , and everything is ready to go straight up. ( years ago entering a reef pass, when the engine failed thought me that !) .


That boat had furlers on all sails. so presumably the SOP was to roll up outside the harbour and motor in , thats the way 1000s do.

What then happened , we don't know , so speculation is useless in resolving the flawed decision process. maybe the engine failed, maybe the steering failed, maybe too much time was spent trying to restart the diesel. who knows.

whats was the crew situation, wind direction , who knows , maybe the sails were furled "after" she hit the sand??

Short of a detailed description of the skippers thinking , any of us could end up in that situation.

Dave

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

I am conditioned by sailing the coats of UK, Ireland, Atlantic France and Spain, where lots of approaches to harbours on a lee shore are fraught.

Yes, I am sure we really mostly agree on this, when it comes down to specific cases.

The northwest coast of the US is similar. There are basically nowhere, or very very few. safe places to run into. Almost all the harbors have terribly difficult and unsafe entrances, with shallow bars and breaking waves, in bad weather

Interestingly, the west coast of Chile and the Canadian PNW are different. There are often islands to weave in behind, and even with the straight in harbors the entrances are (more often) deep and not that dangerous. We entered canal Chacao (chile, approach to Puerto Montt), open right to the roaring 40's pacific, in 40 - 50kts. It has about 5kts of reversing current, so we slowed our approach and timed it for the current to be with us and the wind and waves.

We did a bunch of sailing in Ireland and my memory (this was 2000 and 2001 so 13 years ago and my memory could simply be failing) is the south and west coast harbors to be generally pretty acceptable for difficult weather entrance. There are some I would not try, but there was almost always one with a decent sailing angle and distance I would have done. The one we had most 'trouble' with was a big loch on the east coast (Strangford?). It had a big current (13kts?) and I somehow screwed up my navigation and we got caught in some huge standing waves. Fortunately the weather was not bad. If we had had gale winds it might have been serious.

[goboatingnow]

We did a bunch of sailing in Ireland and my memory (this was 2000 and 2001 so 13 years ago and my memory could simply be failing) is the south and west coast harbors to be generally pretty acceptable for difficult weather entrance. There are some I would not try, but there was almost always one with a decent sailing angle and distance I would have done. The one we had most 'trouble' with was a big loch on the east coast (Strangford?). It had a big current (13kts?) and I somehow screwed up my navigation and we got caught in some huge standing waves. Fortunately the weather was not bad. If we had had gale winds it might have been seriou

Most the small harbours in the S & SW of Ireland, become very dangerous in a big onshore swell. you tend to be forced to commit as often getting back out is tricky. Big ports like Cork etc are not an issue, though you get a severe beating of Roches Point.

Even wide entrances like waterford estuary can be problematic with Southerly up your arse and an 8 knot ebb, these are be small boat killers if you goof up.

The east coast is only rarely a lee shore, so things are different, Strangford is notorious because of the ebb!! , essentially a big lake filling and emptying into the seas through a small entrance.


further W and up the W coast gets even worse.


Same is true for ,any Scotish ports and along the coast of portugal, harbours with seemingly nice wide deep entrances can have blinking rollers in them in onshore gales , Bayona is a classic example, most of the time it has a lovely entrance, in bad conditions, your fighting boat breaking rollers

La Coruna is similar, looks to people on a chart as very accessible, but in a blow from certain directions , its a very nasty piece of water.

Calvi in Corscia, Bonnefacio, similar, yet the NE coast of Sardina, has a nice inshore behind the island route. Even simple entrance ports like Lagos in Portugal , Miss the narrow entrance and you'll be on the beach , in the the time it takes to say "what the F*&k" ( as you will be in Kilmore Quay in Wexford in Ireland

[Ocean Girl]

To add to the engine in Heavy weather question.
I crewed aboard a motor sailor in a 13+ hour wind storm. Gusts past 65 knots, Atlantic. At first we sailed as best we could until the poo really started to hit the fan, then we bare poled it, and motored slightly off wind. The 35 foot motor sailor had a lot of windage. Dog house, roller furling main and jib, tons of jerry cans and gear. We were all bluewater inexperienced aboard. The motor was a 40 hp turbo. I don't remember having engine heating issues, but the working gage was out in the cockpit, so we very well could of. The big issue for us was cavitating the prop. though we adjusted heading speed etc, the waves were so bloody steep, when we fell off the waves the prop would be exposed. Also there was about 4-6 feet of foam in the troughs, don't know if that has any effect on the intake or prop but it was darn weirded. After a few hours the prop shaft began to work loose and began to leak. It leaked around the very aft edge of the stuffing box but the whole shaft seemed to want to implode with every pounding wave. The leak became progressively worse, to the point of great concern as it ate through three bilge pumps(2 electric one manual). I was the only one not incapacitated by sea sickness, so I crawled back to the stuffing box to try to stem the flow but access was terrible, and the ability to do anything but "look" was extremely difficult in those seas. No repair was done. We just babied the engine, using enough RPMs to maintain steerage. After the storm, we estimated we had drifted 75 miles backwards (24hour period). I ended up using the bucket bailing method until we made port.

So for that storm, the prop shaft was the thing that nearly sunk us. BTW, I cannot imagine lying a hull in those conditions, in that boat. She was a big egg with a keel.

Boat design

[Kenomac]

A cavitating prop shaft coming loose in foul weather is something, I'd never considered.

Another good point you made... seasickness. On our trip to Guernsey, I was definitely seasick for the first time in years, it caught me off guard and I didn't have any medication on board, lucky with the delivery crew taking care of everything, I wasn't required to have any reponsibilities during that time.

Since then, we always have seasick meds in the galley cabinet. Seasickness can be very incapacitating, I had another episode whilst heading across the Bay of Biscay....'thought I was going to die from a cerebral bleed, lucky it turned out to be just a severe migraine. Sea sickness really does effect one's ability to reason properly during a bad situation.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

A cavitating prop shaft coming loose in foul weather is something, I'd never considered.
.

Part of the general idea of not using the machinery in really bad conditions. Many other bad things besides can happen to the machinery when you're being thrown around on a rough sea.