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22-07-2021, 05:03
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#271
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 11,002
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Re: % legal holding tank dumping?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lake-Effect
So, as I asked before, propose an enforceable law.
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Dockhead proposed a much more realistic approach that is more likely to have people abide by it and be enforceable.
Only thing I might add is you can't dump in proximity to areas where people can reasonably be expected to be in contact with the water (say 5 cables).
Why do you keep coming up with examples of issues that no one is arguing with?
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22-07-2021, 05:03
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#272
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Penobscot Bay, Maine
Boat: Tayana 47
Posts: 2,123
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Re: % legal holding tank dumping?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike OReilly
I really don't think the 3nm limit is vital. Could be 2, or 1. Could be less than 1, but that would require the use of fractions and decimal points, and we know how bad most people are with math . Point is, the law allows for enforcement against the more egregious offenders, while allowing most reasonable people to behave reasonably.
I truly do wonder why this has become such a burning issue on the east coast of the USA. It can't just be population or boat density; there are other places with similar numbers. And as I've said, Canada shares a lot of water with our American cousins, yet I've never even heard about enforcement issues on our side of the border.
I do wonder if it has something to do with the number of police, and competing enforcement forces. Anyone have informed thoughts on this?
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Canada, like Maine where I live, has a northern climate with a short boating season and few year round liveaboards. We have no problems in Maine either, for all the same reasons. The 3 mile rule is rarely enforced and that’s good because if it was, we’d all be found to be in violation with no practical way to avoid it. And yet, the water seems clean and I’ve never heard of boaters flushing or pumping well inside the 3nm limit. In other words, the 3nm “limit” is routinely disregarded by both law enforcement and boaters with no discernible negative consequences.,It’s not a one country versus another thing but has more to do with local conditions. On the other hand, though Florida and Maine are in the same country, conditions couldn’t be more different. Florida obviously needs to have different rules in place to avoid having the very high concentration of boaters and shallow water without much tidal action turn some areas into little more than open sewers.
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22-07-2021, 05:06
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#273
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Penobscot Bay, Maine
Boat: Tayana 47
Posts: 2,123
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Re: % legal holding tank dumping?
Oops, meant to say I’ve never heard of boaters getting in trouble for flushing overboard or dumping inside 3nm limit.
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22-07-2021, 05:14
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#274
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 11,002
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Re: % legal holding tank dumping?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtsailjt
Canada, like Maine where I live, has a northern climate with a short boating season and few year round liveaboards. We have no problems in Maine either, for all the same reasons. The 3 mile rule is rarely enforced and that’s good because if it was, we’d all be found to be in violation with no practical way to avoid it. And yet, the water seems clean and I’ve never heard of boaters flushing or pumping well inside the 3nm limit. In other words, the 3nm “limit” is routinely disregarded by both law enforcement and boaters with no discernible negative consequences.,It’s not a one country versus another thing but has more to do with local conditions. On the other hand, though Florida and Maine are in the same country, conditions couldn’t be more different. Florida obviously needs to have different rules in place to avoid having the very high concentration of boaters and shallow water without much tidal action turn some areas into little more than open sewers.
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So it's a law that everyone violates and isn't enforced...what exactly is the purpose then? (I'm not disagreeing and I would say it's typical outside of a few specific communities)
Florida isn't really that much different. Most of the dense boating is in and around the ICW, so just like I'm sure you don't want people in your enclosed Maine marina dumping in the marina, the ICW is typically not suitable. Once you go out the inlets in Florida, the density of boating drops by several orders of magnitude and it is a non-issue.
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22-07-2021, 08:05
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#275
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Good question
Boat: Rafiki 37
Posts: 14,206
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Re: % legal holding tank dumping?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead
This is the rationale behind the UK's liberal policy about discharge -- UK waters are strongly tidal, and studies show that recreational boat discharges are meaningless in such waters. There are local rules against discharging inside harbours or in the immediate vicinity of beaches or shellfish beds, but otherwise you can discharge where you like.
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Do you have access to these studies DH? I've been trying to find relevant research, but have only found those two papers so far (that I've referenced), and they are only peripherally relevant. While I continue to be of the mind that discharge from boaters in areas of good volume & flow is inconsequential, I would be happier if quality evidence that this is the case.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtsailjt
Canada, like Maine where I live, has a northern climate with a short boating season and few year round liveaboards. We have no problems in Maine either, for all the same reasons. The 3 mile rule is rarely enforced and that’s good because if it was, we’d all be found to be in violation with no practical way to avoid it. And yet, the water seems clean and I’ve never heard of boaters flushing or pumping well inside the 3nm limit. In other words, the 3nm “limit” is routinely disregarded by both law enforcement and boaters with no discernible negative consequences.,It’s not a one country versus another thing but has more to do with local conditions. On the other hand, though Florida and Maine are in the same country, conditions couldn’t be more different. Florida obviously needs to have different rules in place to avoid having the very high concentration of boaters and shallow water without much tidal action turn some areas into little more than open sewers.
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Yes, good point. The USA is a big country, and I'm sure Maine and Florida are quite different. In fact, the issues I mostly hear about here on CF seem to come from the Florida area, so maybe poo-policing is really only a concern down there.
To me, this really is an answerable biological/ecological question. If dumping boater effluent within the 3nm limit isn't an issue (as I believe it is not), then this is a question that can be answered by the right research.
And if it's not an issue, as most of the world seems to believe, then why is it an enforcement issue in some parts of the eastern USA?
BTW, there are lots of laws that are not enforced to the letter. Speeding, jaywalking, excessive noise, tax fudging... The list could easily be long. So there is the letter of the law, and then there is the discretionary enforcement which recognizes reality. So I'm not particularly bothered by the 3nm law, and apparently neither is almost anyone else.
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22-07-2021, 08:22
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#276
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Denmark (Winter), Helsinki (Summer); Cruising the Baltic Sea this year!
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 33,865
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Re: % legal holding tank dumping?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike OReilly
Do you have access to these studies DH? I've been trying to find relevant research, but have only found those two papers so far (that I've referenced), and they are only peripherally relevant. While I continue to be of the mind that discharge from boaters in areas of good volume & flow is inconsequential, I would be happier if quality evidence that this is the case.. . .
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I had a copy of it, but it's probably on my previous computer. The RYA was consulted and helped produce the study. I imagine you could google it up.
It's always good to have hard data, but I think your intuition is obviously correct. It's all a question of dilution. A piece of sea which is 10m deep and 1 cable by 1 cable contains almost half a million tonnes of seawater. Dump a whole holding tank into that and once it's dispersed I guess it will meet drinking water standards easily.
__________________
"You sea! I resign myself to you also . . . . I guess what you mean,
I behold from the beach your crooked inviting fingers,
I believe you refuse to go back without feeling of me;
We must have a turn together . . . . I undress . . . . hurry me out of sight of the land,
Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
Walt Whitman
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22-07-2021, 08:54
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#277
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Good question
Boat: Rafiki 37
Posts: 14,206
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Re: % legal holding tank dumping?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead
I had a copy of it, but it's probably on my previous computer. The RYA was consulted and helped produce the study. I imagine you could google it up.
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My searching skills are not up to the task DH. Do you have more detail? RYA was consulted, but who did the study?
Anyway, I spent some time at the RYA website. There are a couple of useful pages there, including one which outlines the current state of the law for blackwater discharge in various European countries. It's instructive to read through this. Some countries are far more restrictive than we've been discussing (have a 12 nm limit).
https://www.rya.org.uk/knowledge/abroad/holding-tanks
The theme is pretty clear: the laws and regs are leaning toward greater restrictions. They make the point that all new vessels (as of 2016) must have provision for a holding system.
The most relevant passage I can find that addresses the ecological question is this:
https://www.rya.org.uk/knowledge/env...ste-management
Quote:
Levels of sewage input from recreational craft are thought to be relatively small compared to direct inputs from sewage treatment works but the effects are serious and can potentially affect water quality in a number of ways. Raw sewage poses a serious health risk to humans, adversely affects shellfish and reduces oxygen levels in the water, while grey water discharge leads to nutrient enrichment and algal blooms. As a result, it is our responsibility as recreational boaters to be aware of the rules regulating the disposal of garbage and sewage.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead
It's always good to have hard data, but I think your intuition is obviously correct. It's all a question of dilution. A piece of sea which is 10m deep and 1 cable by 1 cable contains almost half a million tonnes of seawater. Dump a whole holding tank into that and once it's dispersed I guess it will meet drinking water standards easily.
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I think so... but I also recognize my own biases when it comes to this question. Intuition is often a poor guide to what is really going on, which is why I'd like to see actual scientific support for my belief.
ADD: https://thegreenblue.org.uk/you-your...ention/sewage/
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22-07-2021, 09:00
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#278
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Denmark (Winter), Helsinki (Summer); Cruising the Baltic Sea this year!
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 33,865
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Re: % legal holding tank dumping?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike OReilly
. . . I think so... but I also recognize my own biases when it comes to this question. Intuition is often a poor guide to what is really going on, which is why I'd like to see actual scientific support for my belief.. . .
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A very sound intellectual approach What I would expect from you.
I feel the same way and would be glad to have my knowledge expanded with real science.
__________________
"You sea! I resign myself to you also . . . . I guess what you mean,
I behold from the beach your crooked inviting fingers,
I believe you refuse to go back without feeling of me;
We must have a turn together . . . . I undress . . . . hurry me out of sight of the land,
Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
Walt Whitman
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22-07-2021, 09:03
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#279
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Penobscot Bay, Maine
Boat: Tayana 47
Posts: 2,123
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Re: % legal holding tank dumping?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike OReilly
And if it's not an issue, as most of the world seems to believe, then why is it an enforcement issue in some parts of the eastern USA?
BTW, there are lots of laws that are not enforced to the letter. Speeding, jaywalking, excessive noise, tax fudging... The list could easily be long. So there is the letter of the law, and then there is the discretionary enforcement which recognizes reality. So I'm not particularly bothered by the 3nm law, and apparently neither is almost anyone else.
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I’ve heard but not experienced enforcement issues in Rhode Island where boaters well away from a harbor were harassed for dumping overboard. And of course we hear a lot about Florida which is sort of unique in lots of ways. I’ve never been bothered by the 3nm limit either but I don’t like the idea of being dependent on the discretion of law enforcement personnel when I’m doing nothing harmful to the environment and almost everyone else is doing the same thing. I’m generally a big supporter of all kinds of law enforcement personnel and know that they too prefer laws that clearly define actual wrongdoing and aren’t so heavily dependent on their own interpretation of what’s reasonable. So, while i recognize that it wouldn’t be practical to have a law that perfectly matched conditions in every area, and since the intent of the law is to avoid having offensive concentrations of sewage along the shore, especially in populated areas, I think something like a 1/2 mile rule for boats with holding tanks under 50 gallons but with published, more stringent rules for areas that are more sensitive would be something that most boaters would see as being more in line with what their own judgement has them now doing illegally, and law enforcement personnel could actually enforce while maintaining their credibility. The 3 mile limit could be kept in place for larger vessels with larger holding tanks that could potentially dump a large enough amount of sewage in one are to be detectable by other boaters or by those on shore.
When the arbitrary 3 mile rule was put in place it would have been very difficult to communicate variations in that distance for particular areas so any variations would have made things more confusing, so I can understand the original reasoning behind a one size fits all rule, but with the Internet available to almost everyone, all along the coastal US, and visual depictions that could clearly depict the line right on our smartphones and chartplotters, it’s a whole different story, so I think it’s time for the law to be more closely aligned with what most boaters and scientists think would be a reasonable buffer that would prevent offensive concentrations of sewage but accommodate boaters need to get rid of waste. It makes no sense to me to still have one rule that applies to all areas with such disparate conditions when the means to communicate a more reasonable and thus more widely respected rule is so readily available.
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22-07-2021, 09:30
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#280
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Lake Ont
Posts: 8,548
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Re: % legal holding tank dumping?
Quote:
Originally Posted by valhalla360
Dockhead proposed a much more realistic approach that is more likely to have people abide by it and be enforceable.
Only thing I might add is you can't dump in proximity to areas where people can reasonably be expected to be in contact with the water (say 5 cables).
Why do you keep coming up with examples of issues that no one is arguing with?
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Explain how you'd enforce this. Or just keep asserting that everyone would naturally do the right thing.
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22-07-2021, 10:25
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#281
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 11,002
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Re: % legal holding tank dumping?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lake-Effect
Explain how you'd enforce this. Or just keep asserting that everyone would naturally do the right thing.
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Same way they enforce now except, legality and enforcement align.
But really, you are likely to see more self enforcement as it's much easier to comply with and much more logical.
Arbitrary law enforcement is troublesome as it creates animosity between the public and the police. Eliminating that is a positive impact.
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22-07-2021, 11:14
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#282
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Good question
Boat: Rafiki 37
Posts: 14,206
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Re: % legal holding tank dumping?
Seems pretty clear that the 3nm limit comes from the international MARPOL conventions ( International Convention for the Prevention of Pollution from Ships) of which most countries are signatories to. This convention is aimed specifically at larger vessels (over 400 tons), but the law has been applied to all vessels.
There's a certain simple logic to doing this. I get it; it makes for easy application and enforcement. It certainly seems to achieve the biological/ecological needs of the marine environment, which is the whole point. But it is apparently at odds with common practice for many (most?) recreational boaters.
Another paper: https://www.sail-world.com/Australia...rce=duckduckgo
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22-07-2021, 11:51
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#283
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Penobscot Bay, Maine
Boat: Tayana 47
Posts: 2,123
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Re: % legal holding tank dumping?
Quote:
Originally Posted by valhalla360
So it's a law that everyone violates and isn't enforced...what exactly is the purpose then? (I'm not disagreeing and I would say it's typical outside of a few specific communities)
Florida isn't really that much different. Most of the dense boating is in and around the ICW, so just like I'm sure you don't want people in your enclosed Maine marina dumping in the marina, the ICW is typically not suitable. Once you go out the inlets in Florida, the density of boating drops by several orders of magnitude and it is a non-issue.
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I guess the best that can be said for it is that it’s simple to remember, and it’s probably pretty appropriate for larger vessels with large holding tanks. But in my opinion it’s not appropriate when occasionally that same standard is applied to smaller vessels that aren’t even capable of discharging a large enough quantity of sewage to do any harm or for anyone to even notice.
I agree that all of Florida isn’t even the same but just generally speaking there are many more areas with potential issues in a place like that with lots of boating being done within protected waters like the inland waterway on the east coast or in shallow areas from Tampa on south along the west coast and down throughout the keys. As others have pointed out, no law will perfectly balance the needs of boaters and the environment in all areas, but I think we should easily be able to improve on a blanket 3nm buffer.
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22-07-2021, 13:03
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#284
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Lake Ont
Posts: 8,548
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Re: % legal holding tank dumping?
Quote:
Originally Posted by valhalla360
Same way they enforce now except, legality and enforcement align.
But really, you are likely to see more self enforcement as it's much easier to comply with and much more logical.
Arbitrary law enforcement is troublesome as it creates animosity between the public and the police. Eliminating that is a positive impact.
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I defer to Rob on the specifics of enforcement, but as he mentions, laws have to be reasonably enforceable and convictions obtainable... or you don't have deterrence.
And as I mentioned right after his post, sometimes you have to specify X (eg 3 nm) in order to have a reasonable compliance at 50% of X (more people likely to be concerned about it, a higher overall rate of compliance).
I shan't trouble you further.
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22-07-2021, 13:18
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#285
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Good question
Boat: Rafiki 37
Posts: 14,206
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Re: % legal holding tank dumping?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lake-Effect
And as I mentioned right after his post, sometimes you have to specify X (eg 3 nm) in order to have a reasonable compliance at 50% of X (more people likely to be concerned about it, a higher overall rate of compliance).
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This is partly why I'm not very bothered by the status-quo. I think it provides a simple measure for enforcement to act if necessary. And it's easy to remember. Plus it aligns with international law. And most importantly, seems to achieve the needed ecological benchmark.
As long as enforcement is not overly-zealous, and boaters respect the intent, if not the letter, of the law, then it can all work fine. The fact that this is a non-issue in most boater communities is evidence that it's not really a problem.
But I still would love to see quality research examining our impacts. There seems to be a dearth of hard evidence, either way. Sounds like a good excuse for a research cruise .
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