Cruisers Forum
 


Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on Cruisers Forums. Advertise Here
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 24-09-2022, 13:52   #16
Registered User
 
thomm225's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Lower Chesapeake Bay Area
Boat: Bristol 27
Posts: 10,451
Re: Learning to sail

Quote:
Originally Posted by maryc View Post
I learned to sail on a lake in OK by taking ASA 101. Bought a 26ft Hunter a few weeks later and sailed it for several years until my son went to college and I went cruising on a 28ft and now am on a 31footer that I sailed to Panama, My experience is that sailing on a lake is nothing like sailing on the ocean, but it's still a lot of fun.
My experience is that sailing on the ocean is pretty much the same as lake sailing except the distances are greater.

For those sailing offshore though, weather and sea state become a concern as does amount of crew to sail the boat or if single handing ability to heave too or lay a hull when totally exhausted
thomm225 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-09-2022, 14:11   #17
Registered User
 
malbert73's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2008
Boat: Tartan 40
Posts: 2,460
Re: Learning to sail

Quote:
Originally Posted by thomm225 View Post
My experience is that sailing on the ocean is pretty much the same as lake sailing except the distances are greater.

For those sailing offshore though, weather and sea state become a concern as does amount of crew to sail the boat or if single handing ability to heave too or lay a hull when totally exhausted


I disagree actually. Ocean sea state is completely different than lakes so things that work on lakes (like sailing downwind without a preventer) just don’t work always in ocean swells. And, ocean swells are a major equalizer with the seasickness they can induce.
malbert73 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-09-2022, 14:16   #18
Registered User
 
thomm225's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Lower Chesapeake Bay Area
Boat: Bristol 27
Posts: 10,451
Re: Learning to sail

Quote:
Originally Posted by malbert73 View Post
I disagree actually. Ocean sea state is completely different than lakes so things that work on lakes (like sailing downwind without a preventer) just don’t work always in ocean swells. And, ocean swells are a major equalizer with the seasickness they can induce.
Nice.

I don't have a preventer and learned sailing on a lake.

So far when ocean sailing, I use the same setup as on the bay. (and on Arkabutla or Sardis Lake in upper Mississippi)

Seasickness is a good point though.

Here on the lower Chesapeake Bay, we have Bay waves mixed with ocean waves as soon as we clear the creek! Half a Dramamine is sometimes necessary .....

Like 10 minutes after you start to sail if the wind has an Easterly component you are dealing with ocean swell here.

Luckily for you where you are is similar to lake sailing.....

Speaking of downwind with out a preventer, I got caught in 30 plus knots a while back and no preventer. It was in the bay so I only had 20 miles to cross and got this video near the end of the trip after things had calmed down a bit.

Boat is still over powered though and pushing a lot of water as I had the wrong sail up but sailing single handed there was no way I could stop steering and go forward to lower the main.

If in the ocean the swells would have been further apart so I most probably could have lowered the main and used the jib and autopilot

Good new was that I made the entire crossing in three hours....

thomm225 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-09-2022, 15:06   #19
Registered User
 
malbert73's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2008
Boat: Tartan 40
Posts: 2,460
Re: Learning to sail

Sure! But the ground swell on the ocean even in light winds is what I am mentioning. Sure you can get away (at your peril) without a preventer on the Bay but it’s the light/moderate wind on ocean passages in which the preventer is essential since the boat rolls and moves so much but without strong pressure to hold the boom.
And yes the northern bay where we set out from just gets the wicked Bay chop. It’s our annual 1000 mile summer cruise to RI/MA that has taught me the difference between ocean and bay/lake sailing.
malbert73 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-09-2022, 04:19   #20
Registered User
 
thomm225's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Lower Chesapeake Bay Area
Boat: Bristol 27
Posts: 10,451
Re: Learning to sail

Quote:
Originally Posted by malbert73 View Post
Sure! But the ground swell on the ocean even in light winds is what I am mentioning. Sure you can get away (at your peril) without a preventer on the Bay but it’s the light/moderate wind on ocean passages in which the preventer is essential since the boat rolls and moves so much but without strong pressure to hold the boom.
And yes the northern bay where we set out from just gets the wicked Bay chop. It’s our annual 1000 mile summer cruise to RI/MA that has taught me the difference between ocean and bay/lake sailing.
Point is you can learn most everything you need to know about sailing on a lake then you will just have to adjust to the differences when you retire and move to the coast (or back to the coast in my case)

Tides that swing your boat beam too during night at anchor will be one.

Seasickness for some will definitely be another.

I had maybe 11 boats before this old monohull but had trouble adjusting to it's motion especially downwind in say over 20 knots as it will roll, and roll, and roll, and.......roll

That plus as soon as I clear Litter Creek I'm getting ocean swell many times. Also when you first leave the dock you have your head down a lot setting up autopilot, raising sails, etc which can be a problem for those affected by seasickness.

Many times I'll take 1/2 a Dramamine before leaving. I

In the video above though, I popped 2-3 Dramamine because I knew I couldn't get seasick because I would have been in trouble if I couldn't keep the boat near DDW.

If at anchor I usually don't have a problem since I have been on the boat for at least a day.

North of Cape Charles I don't have problems but as soon as the ocean swell gets involved I can sometimes feel it

Today though we have a forecast of 15-25 knots but it's out of the SW so it will be pretty smooth out for a couple miles which gives you time to adjust.....
thomm225 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-09-2022, 06:19   #21
Registered User
 
jeanathon's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: WNC mountains U.S.
Boat: Haven't seen it yet. Bought on Ebay
Posts: 1,214
Re: Learning to sail

No ocean sailing is not the same as lake sailing, but neither is one patch of the ocean the same as another patch of the same ocean. They all present unique challenges, but also similarities that build on the whole thing called experience.
One thing I learned on a lake is that thinking you cannot reduce sail because you are single handing is dangerous thinking. Best to turn up into the wind earlier(before you break stuff) to reduce sail rather than later when single handing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thomm225 View Post


Boat is still over powered though and pushing a lot of water as I had the wrong sail up but sailing single handed there was no way I could stop steering and go forward to lower the main.
__________________
If you FEEL like you have been heard. You definitely weren't listening,
jeanathon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-09-2022, 06:36   #22
Registered User
 
thomm225's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Lower Chesapeake Bay Area
Boat: Bristol 27
Posts: 10,451
Re: Learning to sail

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeanathon View Post
No ocean sailing is not the same as lake sailing, but neither is one patch of the ocean the same as another patch of the same ocean. They all present unique challenges, but also similarities that build on the whole thing called experience.
One thing I learned on a lake is that thinking you cannot reduce sail because you are single handing is dangerous thinking. Best to turn up into the wind earlier(before you break stuff) to reduce sail rather than later when single handing.
Sure but I was sailing in the lee of the land with a forecast of only 22 knots.

I pulled anchor circled in to shore and raised the main with my one reef which is all it has.

After clearing the cement ships I set the autopilot then unfurled the jib and started cruising home. This at 0730.

Pretty soon though the waves were nearing 7'-8' and the wind gusting over 30 knots as soon as I cleared the protection of the land. I had to get away from the bridge so I was headed SW on a broad reach.

After the waves started breaking over the side, I was holding on to the winch to stay onboard. Soon the autopilot was over powered so I had to steer by hand. Also during this time I had to reach below to get a couple hatch boards to put in and my harness.

Some time during this period the dodger frame got broken by a breaking wave.

As soon as I had enough room to turn DDW I did and furled the jib which was tough in those winds. Got rope burns.

About that time a tanker was coming in so I had to head a bit SE to let him pass.

After that it was just holding the boat at DDW but I couldn't see any buoys I guess because of the wave height and spray.

By this time there was no way I could turn into the wind in those conditions. The boat would have taken a real beating if I had.

I was also worrying about my near 20 year old rigging and loose tiller (which later I found was just the bolts needed tightening)

So I crossed the two shipping channels where the worst of the waves were and it was wind against tide. By the time I was in sync enough to record the video things were starting to lay down a bit and I was nearing my creek. By this time it was somewhere around 1000.

All I had to do was split the two jetties which again put me on a broad reach. I came in sideways due to wind and strong tide on the windward side just in case something broke.

Soon as I got a bit of cover I set autopilot then went forward to lower the main. The boat was still flying along....

A 55' racing boat was the only other boat I saw. It was from my dock and they too had underestimated the wind. One of the crew said the waves were breaking over the bow and back to the cockpit. He said a few of them got brutally seasick. They were sailing sort of upwind with jib only but they soon turned back

Fishermen were telling each other the wave were 10' and coming in. They were probably on the ocean side of the bridge and still in the protection of the land somewhat

Repairs were dodger frame, tiller bolts, and bow lights. The bow must have been under water so much they stopped working.

In video below, Winds gusting to 29 knots here (different day) but just had a bit of jib up. Autopilot steering.

Sometime after this video I crossed between two 40' plus sailboats headed into the wind under reefed main and jib . One looked like it was on rails. Really going to windward well.....I was quite envious and immediately went to YachtingWorld to search for a similar boat when I got home.

thomm225 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-09-2022, 07:32   #23
Registered User
 
thomm225's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Lower Chesapeake Bay Area
Boat: Bristol 27
Posts: 10,451
Re: Learning to sail

This was the night before video above with jib only.

I'm in as close as I can get to land Western Side of Bay near the York River.

So the good news is if I drag anchor or have some sort of rode failure I have 20-25 miles of Bay behind me.

thomm225 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-09-2022, 07:36   #24
cruiser

Join Date: Aug 2021
Location: Glen Allen, VA
Boat: Sabre 34-1 CB, 34 feet
Posts: 341
Re: Learning to sail

The videos look like Force 6, not consistent Force 7. Both have whitecaps and spray, but Force 7 shows white foam streaks and more numerous whitecaps, breaking wave tops. Spindrift appears at Force 8.

It is difficult to judge wave height. Those fisherman might have been exaggerating 10'. I have seen 5' in the lower Chesapeake.

I wholeheartedly agree with your assessment of the lower Chesapeake Bay. The problems are all the shipping traffic, the bridge tunnel and other obstructions, strong tidal currents, shoals, possible ocean waves from the SSE, and long fetch waves from the north.

Lately, exiting the Bay through the bridge tunnel has become more exciting for small sailboats. The park service calls the Northern Channel "the washing machine", and the Chesapeake tunnel suffers from fishing boat traffic, relatively narrow width and rocks. This past summer we left against a flood tide, beating into strong southerly winds with reefed sails, and slowly gaining distance away from the nearby bridge tunnel on each tack. I always feel a sense of relief after passing #2 buoy and Nautilus Shoals. I have never entered or exited through the Thimble Shoals channel.
Sailor Sailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-09-2022, 07:39   #25
cruiser

Join Date: Aug 2021
Location: Glen Allen, VA
Boat: Sabre 34-1 CB, 34 feet
Posts: 341
Re: Learning to sail

You can see the foam streaks with Force 7, eight years ago on the Rappahannock River from my last boat:https://youtu.be/ZiPm_Z3wiw4

Sailor Sailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-09-2022, 07:53   #26
Registered User
 
thomm225's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Lower Chesapeake Bay Area
Boat: Bristol 27
Posts: 10,451
Re: Learning to sail

s
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sailor Sailor View Post
The videos look like Force 6, not consistent Force 7. Both have whitecaps and spray, but Force 7 shows white foam streaks and more numerous whitecaps, breaking wave tops. Spindrift appears at Force 8.

It is difficult to judge wave height. Those fisherman might have been exaggerating 10'. I have seen 5' in the lower Chesapeake.

I wholeheartedly agree with your assessment of the lower Chesapeake Bay. The problems are all the shipping traffic, the bridge tunnel and other obstructions, strong tidal currents, shoals, possible ocean waves from the SSE, and long fetch waves from the north.

Lately, exiting the Bay through the bridge tunnel has become more exciting for small sailboats. The park service calls the Northern Channel "the washing machine", and the Chesapeake tunnel suffers from fishing boat traffic, relatively narrow width and rocks. This past summer we left against a flood tide, beating into strong southerly winds with reefed sails, and slowly gaining distance away from the nearby bridge tunnel on each tack. I always feel a sense of relief after passing #2 buoy and Nautilus Shoals. I have never entered or exited through the Thimble Shoals channel.
The largest waves I saw were on either side of the two shipping channels especially the Northern Channel or Chesapeake Channel. The wind was peaking around then and it was tide against wind and the channels have the stronger tides due to their depth.

The fishermen may have been near one of the shoals which on that day would have had some high wave heights.

Latimer Shoal has a 3' depth on low tide near the high rise CBBT section with a 35'-40' channel nearby

Its a couple miles offshore.

Then there's 9' shoal where you could probably surf it if you wanted but some of it goes under the bridge spans.

Now we have dredging happening on the Thimble Shoal Channel plus they are working on the second tunnel and there are numerous crane barges being pushed by tugs and the crew boats with the wakes constantly coming and going. Also tugs at anchor.

Also tugs barges loaded with dirt/rocks

This plus normal shipping traffic.

I had to dodge two barges yesterday. They were in the creek due to the strong Northerly winds we had the previous few days. The tug captains are working also and I didn't get any radio calls to move out of the way.

I just happened to turn and see this huge barge bearing down on me as I'm trying to sail in almost no wind away from the Little Creek entrance. He was headed back out with the barge and crew as the winds had come down.

https://www.easternshorepost.com/202...ve-years-late/

Luckily I have learned to leave the outboard down and idling while doing this so I just hit the throttle and rolled around the barge which had this huge crane onboard.

On the way in similar thing as I was on autopilot coming in up forward lowering sail. I saw the tug breaking the barge loose but was able to get by without changing course.

There were 3-4 boats behind me coming in and 3-4 coming out.

Today we have 15-25 SW which should make it easy to avoid traffic under sail.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Crane Barge.jpg
Views:	36
Size:	88.9 KB
ID:	264925   Click image for larger version

Name:	CBBTInterior-View-Launch-Pit.jpg
Views:	43
Size:	133.5 KB
ID:	264926  

thomm225 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-09-2022, 08:17   #27
Registered User
 
thomm225's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Lower Chesapeake Bay Area
Boat: Bristol 27
Posts: 10,451
Re: Learning to sail

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sailor Sailor View Post
You can see the foam streaks with Force 7, eight years ago on the Rappahannock River from my last boat:https://youtu.be/ZiPm_Z3wiw4
Yeah that's a lot of wind. I may have had that much early on when the waves were breaking over the side and on top of the dodger.

I just knew I didn't want the wind and waves to get any worse.

Since then I have had time to think about the what if's.

What if I had to sail 50 miles or 100 miles before the wind came down some? I had run out of water on my 20 mile crossing and couldn't reach another bottle. Plus no food nearby.

What if my rig failed?

What if I lost rudder control?

I had streaks etc in the water here but the old recorder sort of covered them.

Luckily I was at anchor close to land just South of the York River. I had just anchored 30 minutes or so earlier on a beautiful Sunny afternoon around about 3:45 pm

thomm225 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-09-2022, 09:47   #28
cruiser

Join Date: Aug 2021
Location: Glen Allen, VA
Boat: Sabre 34-1 CB, 34 feet
Posts: 341
Re: Learning to sail

Yes, my son and I got caught in a cold front passage while leaving Kiptopeake. My wife's kayak was on the foredeck, so I had difficulty turning into the wind. We ended up exiting the Bay through the North Channel, and reentering through the Chesapeake Channel after it passed. Fortunately, the Sabre starts surging in Force 6 while reaching or running. We exceeded 10 knots leaving the Bay with bare poles and engine in low rpms. You can see the wave heights in the lower Bay, only 3-5 feet.

Sailor Sailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-09-2022, 09:49   #29
cruiser

Join Date: Aug 2021
Location: Glen Allen, VA
Boat: Sabre 34-1 CB, 34 feet
Posts: 341
Re: Learning to sail

Here is Force 6 (what would be normal tradewind speeds for the cruisers) reaching in the Atlantic on a coastal hop this summer. Waves 3 -7 ft, boat speed 6-7 kts. with bursts of surfing up to 8-10 knots again. Lots of great sailing.

https://youtu.be/Np0SEMFq1wg

Sailor Sailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-09-2022, 12:56   #30
Registered User
 
thomm225's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Lower Chesapeake Bay Area
Boat: Bristol 27
Posts: 10,451
Re: Learning to sail

Nice videos.

Kiptopeke is where I left from on my Big Wind video which is why I was sailing SW to get away from the bridge. Also my creek is at about long. 76.10 and Kiptopeke is 75.59 or so.

All hell broke loose when I cleared all land which is a bit W of Cape Charles and near the Chesapeake/Northern Channel.

But that is also where the tanker was coming in that I had to avoid.....

On top of all that I was like mid 60's at the time and had little sleep the night before and sailing single handed.
thomm225 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
learning, sail

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Learning to sail New_to_the_game General Sailing Forum 7 01-05-2009 05:20
Commercial Fisherman - Learning to Sail Mike72 Meets & Greets 4 14-02-2009 20:24
My new blog on buying, restoring and learning to sail with family mkrautha The Library 0 03-07-2008 05:14
Learning to sail NewSailor General Sailing Forum 5 17-04-2007 14:19
Learning to sail in the Carribean Limpet General Sailing Forum 11 29-03-2006 15:40

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:28.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.