Laminated sails vs Dacron durability

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Drek4

Thank you for your comment...
I just want to have a good control on the main and genoa, then after practice as much as I can in calm seas the use of the spinnaker, not a fan of this one, but must to control for good downwind speed.
I wish you the best of luck in your search for new affordable sails.

If you are cruising, a spinnaker is probably not a very good choice.
Spinnakers take take more effort to set, use and douse and can be much worse for the crew and boat if they get out of hand. When racing with a significant crew for a limited period they are generally not a problem.
Cruising is an endurance sport and keeping the generally limited crew from getting fatigued is a good precaution which argues for light air sails that require less effort at the expense of slightly less performance.

CodeZero - Flat cut nylon sail on a roller furler that can be sailed from somewhat above a beam reach to somewhat above dead down wind. Relatively expensive, double or triple the cost of a drifter.

Cruising Chute - Nylon spinnaker, sometimes asymmetrical, tacked at the bow or on a bowsprit. It is NOT shaped the same as a regular spinnaker. Can be sailed from beam reach, perhaps slightly higher, down to somewhat above dead down wind. Somewhat more expensive than a drifter.

For the CZ & CC socks can be used for dousing, at an added cost.

Drifter - Very large nylon genoa. Can be sailed from almost close hauled down to somewhat above dead down wind. Can be sailed dead down wind if it is poled out. Occasionally the main is struck, the main boom is used to pole the drifter out the "leeward" and a jib or genoa is poled out to "windward". This creates a lot of sail area forward boat is much less likely to round up unexpectedly. Drifter is set flying from the bow or with a minimal number of hanks on the headstay. If set on a forestay, then dousing just involves letting halyard go in a controlled manner and keeping the sail from going overboard. Cheapest.

[Drek4]

Originally Posted by Adelie

If you are cruising, a spinnaker is probably not a very good choice.
Spinnakers take take more effort to set, use and douse and can be much worse for the crew and boat if they get out of hand. When racing with a significant crew for a limited period they are generally not a problem.
Cruising is an endurance sport and keeping the generally limited crew from getting fatigued is a good precaution which argues for light air sails that require less effort at the expense of slightly less performance.

CodeZero - Flat cut nylon sail on a roller furler that can be sailed from somewhat above a beam reach to somewhat above dead down wind. Relatively expensive, double or triple the cost of a drifter.

Cruising Chute - Nylon spinnaker, sometimes asymmetrical, tacked at the bow or on a bowsprit. It is NOT shaped the same as a regular spinnaker. Can be sailed from beam reach, perhaps slightly higher, down to somewhat above dead down wind. Somewhat more expensive than a drifter.

For the CZ & CC socks can be used for dousing, at an added cost.

Drifter - Very large nylon genoa. Can be sailed from almost close hauled down to somewhat above dead down wind. Can be sailed dead down wind if it is poled out. Occasionally the main is struck, the main boom is used to pole the drifter out the "leeward" and a jib or genoa is poled out to "windward". This creates a lot of sail area forward boat is much less likely to round up unexpectedly. Drifter is set flying from the bow or with a minimal number of hanks on the headstay. If set on a forestay, then dousing just involves letting halyard go in a controlled manner and keeping the sail from going overboard. Cheapest.

Thank you for your very informative reply.
I will certainly look more into those options, especially "Drifter".
I see many in videos using a Spinnaker with somewhat good results downwind, it seems challenging, that's why I want to choose calmer conditions to see if I can handle this type of sailing.

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by Rumrace

I don’t have a clue about sails except I’m told the main is stretched.
Engines no problems Sails this is a great thread.
Apparently I can change to a square top main. Apparently I can add adjustable battens. I have a self tracking job track but no hardware or sail to fit it. I have all the hardware for a code 0 but no sail. The current sails are Dacron and repaired in a few spots. The foresail is 104,
I have storm sails and an anchor sail which is likely the only thing not junk.
Is their a short list of brands to consider?
If I flip the boat in a year will it maintain value to the sale?
I read about tape sails they were black.

It depends on your boat. What and where are you sailing? You mention flipping does that suggest a multihull?

For example a screecher / code zero on a fast multi will need to cope with small apparent wind angles and have tight sheeting angles, especially if sailing in lighter winds, which is were you would use it most. A lightweight laminate with no UV will be the order of the day. Working sails should take over well before it reaches is limits. A stretchy nylon sail just won't cut it. A slower boat that can't pull the wind forward would get a way with this on a reach.

Again square top benefits will depend on the boat and whether you are cruising or racing. Consider up wind performance in light winds, roached mainsails tend to point higher while a square top may be faster will be self limiting if they can't handle the apparent wind.

Consider reefing, the minute you reef a square top, because the CE is higher up you could be under canvassed in all but full sail conditions.

Ask your self where will the head be relative to the mast supports at each reef point?


Do you intend to have multiple running back stays?

Is your mast capable of handling the extra batten compression high up?


Are you up to playing with halyard tension to stop the head opening?

Stowing a flat top in heavy conditions can be a challenge. There is extra chafe when running. There are lots of other trimming differences. Not better or worse just different.

If you have a racing boat that was designed to have a square top it is a no brainer, but IMO the negatives outweigh any perceived benefits on a cruiser, even a fast cruiser.

A retrofit square top can produce unexpected consequences.

As a way of increasing the the sail area on already under-canvassed charter boats may look trendy but in reality do nothing to improve actual performance.

[soopad00pa]

Interesting. This is something I hadn't ever considered at all, tho it makes sense.

I'm just now learning that my boat sometimes handles better and goes faster with less sail out. It's a strange thing to try and factor into the day.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Drek4

I have read that "Laminated sails" are much more durable than "Dacron sails".
Since the chances are very likely to find them on a new or used sailboat, what can be expected as durability for each type of sail.
Some have stated deformation after only one year with Dacron, is this an exaggeration?
Has anyone had experience with both types of sails to confirm durability?

For a cruising boat, Dacron is fine.

Plus many times you can find Dacron sails used in good shape whereas the laminated sails have been used hard racing.....

https://baconsails.com/

I've had Mylar and Technora square top mains for racing.

And Dacron for cruising. Dacron is fine for cruising.

My main is 8 oz Dacron

[Drek4]

Originally Posted by thomm225

For a cruising boat, Dacron is fine.

Plus many times you can find Dacron sails used in good shape whereas the laminated sails have been used hard racing.....

https://baconsails.com/

I've had Mylar and Technora square top mains for racing.

And Dacron for cruising. Dacron is fine for cruising.

My main is 8 oz Dacron

Thank you for sharing the link and your experience, I will take good note.

[EmeraldCoastSailor]

The laminate headsail that I purchased about 10 years ago started separating a few years ago. I looks like crap now but still sails very well. This sail is used a little more than 50% of the time since I still have the original Dacron genoa which is still in good shape. I alternate usage. My expectations were properly set by the people who made the laminate for me. They said it won’t last as long as Dacron but will perform better. That seems to be proving to be true. One day it is going to blow out. The same people are now telling me that the new laminates last a lot longer. I have treated the sails well with trips to the loft for cleaning, mending, and replacement of UV protection.

[markiobe]

A few things to add to the conversation when choosing sails; boat weight, hull type, sailing modes (sail size is also important but that's already been mentioned).

In theory the heavier the boat, all other things being equal, the more stress there is on the sails. Therefore Dacron sails would likely last less time, through stretch, and the argument for some kind of film (as opposed to woven cloth such as Dacron) sails makes more sense.

A similar argument applies to catamaran vs monohull; the ability of a monohull to heel reduces the 'impact' loading of a gust and therefore reduces the stress on the sails. Although catamarans are typically lighter than monohulls, given that they don't heel much to ease the pressure there's a pretty good argument to make, especially for heavy 'cruising' ones, that film sails make more sense as they undergo a huge amount of loading. If you also have bluff hulls (very likely in the heavier cats) then the force required to drive the hull through the water goes up, again increasing the stress on the sails.

Add these 2 points together and you end up with the somewhat counter-intuitive argument that for heavier, cruising boats, film sails make MORE sense than for lighter, more performance-orientated boats. Add to the fact that heavier boats need bigger sails and the argument makes even more sense.

Sailing modes; the more upwind sailing you do the more the argument for film sails makes sense. The further forward the apparent wind, the larger the force on the sails for a given wind strength. Efficient sailing upwind is more dependent on good sail shape than downwind (at least from a cruising perspective) and given that you're choosing to sail upwind, your destination is going to be hard to get to anyway, therefore efficiency is both desirable and sometimes safer.

Personally I am sailing and I want to sail efficiently. It makes my eyes bleed to see so many cruising boats with horrifyingly stretched sail shapes with the owners wondering why they can't go upwind, they sail slowly etc. etc. Add to that the number of poorly trimmed sails whose owners clearly have no understanding of twist, slot etc then maybe having old Dacron sails is fine for most as they clearly aren't interested in sailing efficiently anyway? Is that too harsh...?

[R Hutcheson]

That has not been my experience, though I haven't bought a new laminate sail since I stopped racing my own boat regularly 15 years ago, so it is possible laminate technology has improved significantly since that time. Laminate gives better sail shape and performance especially upwind since it does not stretch appreciably. However, luffing a laminate sail, even minimally during a well executed tack weakens them and will eventually cause delamination. To stay competitive I would purchase a new laminated headsail every season. The old sails would not be completely shot, and slower members of the fleet would buy them and get another season or two out of them, but they would no longer keep you at the front of the fleet. On my cruising boats I have used Dacron sails for years and been perfectly happy with them, repairing the occasional chafed area, and protecting them from the sun. For cruising unless you really need that extra 1/2 knot of boat speed, my recommendation would be Dacron, and you will pay a lot less for them initially as well.

[Drek4]

Originally Posted by EmeraldCoastSailor

The laminate headsail that I purchased about 10 years ago started separating a few years ago. I looks like crap now but still sails very well. This sail is used a little more than 50% of the time since I still have the original Dacron genoa which is still in good shape. I alternate usage. My expectations were properly set by the people who made the laminate for me. They said it won’t last as long as Dacron but will perform better. That seems to be proving to be true. One day it is going to blow out. The same people are now telling me that the new laminates last a lot longer. I have treated the sails well with trips to the loft for cleaning, mending, and replacement of UV protection.

Thank you for sharing your experience.
Well 10 years is very acceptable towards my expectations of durability.

[CarlF]

Another cruising sailor who agrees that laminated sails are for racers. Despite sailmakers claims that it's "fixed" they still often grow mold between the layers that looks horrible and can't be cleaned - and they rarely last more than 3 years before delaminating. Just ask the sailmaker how many years you can expect the laminate sail to last.

As mentioned above, there are a lot of different woven cloths that offer much lower stretch than the bottom of the barrel sails delivered with most boats. My last boat used Marblehead Dacron. I upgraded my new cat's factory sails to Dimension Polyant Pro-Radial. Both are wonderful cloths that have very little stretch and will last a long, long time.

I got the Marblehead sails from Mack Sails who specializes in cruiser sails. Highly recommend instead of sailmaker focused on racers. Here's their discussion about sailcloth:

Sail Cloth – Mack Sails

[Drek4]

Originally Posted by R Hutcheson

That has not been my experience, though I haven't bought a new laminate sail since I stopped racing my own boat regularly 15 years ago, so it is possible laminate technology has improved significantly since that time. Laminate gives better sail shape and performance especially upwind since it does not stretch appreciably. However, luffing a laminate sail, even minimally during a well executed tack weakens them and will eventually cause delamination. To stay competitive I would purchase a new laminated headsail every season. The old sails would not be completely shot, and slower members of the fleet would buy them and get another season or two out of them, but they would no longer keep you at the front of the fleet. On my cruising boats I have used Dacron sails for years and been perfectly happy with them, repairing the occasional chafed area, and protecting them from the sun. For cruising unless you really need that extra 1/2 knot of boat speed, my recommendation would be Dacron, and you will pay a lot less for them initially as well.

For 1/2 knot, I think I would stick with Dacron.
Thank you for sharing.

[Drek4]

Originally Posted by CarlF

Another cruising sailor who agrees that laminated sails are for racers. Despite sailmakers claims that it's "fixed" they still often grow mold between the layers that looks horrible and can't be cleaned - and they rarely last more than 3 years before delaminating. Just ask the sailmaker how many years you can expect the laminate sail to last.

As mentioned above, there are a lot of different woven cloths that offer much lower stretch than the bottom of the barrel sails delivered with most boats. My last boat used Marblehead Dacron. I upgraded my new cat's factory sails to Dimension Polyant Pro-Radial. Both are wonderful cloths that have very little stretch and will last a long, long time.

I got the Marblehead sails from Mack Sails who specializes in cruiser sails. Highly recommend instead of sailmaker focused on racers. Here's their discussion about sailcloth:

Sail Cloth – Mack Sails

Thank you very much, for the information and link.
I prefer durable, much more than competitive, easier on the wallet.

[arobbert]

Originally Posted by Drek4

I have read that "Laminated sails" are much more durable than "Dacron sails".
Since the chances are very likely to find them on a new or used sailboat, what can be expected as durability for each type of sail.
Some have stated deformation after only one year with Dacron, is this an exaggeration?
Has anyone had experience with both types of sails to confirm durability?

I have had laminated (Norlam) sails on my boat for the past 11 years. They are still in great shape, but after the first year they began to develop mildew stains due to moisture retained between the laminates and it got steadily worse. They are definitely dingy-looking.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Drek4

For 1/2 knot, I think I would stick with Dacron.
Thank you for sharing.

The difference between a sail with good shape and a sail with bad shape is not primarily measured in knots.


When you are sailing with the wind abaft the beam, it doesn't matter much, even in terms of knots -- because the sail is working by drag, not lift (primarily). The shape is less important than area in the wind.


But when you are sailing upwind, the sail has to become a wing -- it moves you with lift, not drag, and drag is the enemy. That's where the art of sailing becomes interesting, shaping and angling the sail to make it work like a wing, maximizing lift vs. drag, getting the angle of attack right. A blown-out dacron sail cannot be trimmed much; can't be made into much of a wing. It's not only slower, it's much less fun to use. You have much less control and much less you can do with it. You can't make it flat and you can't control the draft. You heel much more and have to reef much earlier and can't sail nearly as close to the wind.


That's not measured in knots, that's measured in sailing pleasure. This is more or less important to different people. If you don't care that much about sailing, as many cruisers don't, and that's perfectly fine -- the sport means different things to different people -- then don't worry about the sails, and just use the motor when you can't make decent progress upwind. That's the way my father ran his boat, with old Dacron sails, and we had an enormous amount of fun (even if we put a lot of hours on the old 4-108).


But if you like to sail for sailing's sake, then you may not find Dacron sails satisfactory, at least not on a larger boat. As someone mentioned above, the stress on the sails goes up geometrically with the size of the sails. Somewhere over 40 feet, I think woven sails are pretty hopeless for keen sailing, even cruising, and certainly over 50 feet. Under 30 feet, it doesn't matter nearly as much and good Dacron sails can give good results.

Originally Posted by CarlF

Another cruising sailor who agrees that laminated sails are for racers. Despite sailmakers claims that it's "fixed" they still often grow mold between the layers that looks horrible and can't be cleaned - and they rarely last more than 3 years before delaminating. Just ask the sailmaker how many years you can expect the laminate sail to last.. .

That's old information. There was a revolution some years ago with the process for making laminate sails -- they starting cooking them in autoclaves. This immensely increases the resistance to both mildew and delamination.



When I had carbon laminate sails made for my boat in 2015, 7 years ago, I didn't expect them to last more than 4 or 5 years, but I didn't care, because I love to sail and was sick of stretchy woven sails which I couldn't trim properly. The sailmaker told me that the new laminate cloths were extremely durable, totally different from the older ones, and if you order with taffeta on both sides (which is too heavy for best racing performance), I could expect 10+ years and 20 000+ miles. I didn't believe him!


But lo and behold, 7 years down the pike and 20 000+ miles later, miles in very harsh conditions sailing to Northern Greenland, to Iceland, back and forth across the whole Baltic, most of the European Atlantic coasts, and a dozen times across the North Sea, in all kinds of weather, with the sails always up since I sail year round, and in a wet climate to boot, there is not a spot of mildew and no delamination. There's a bit of chafe now, a bit of algae around the sun strips, and I'm sending them to a sailmaker for cleaning and a bit of work (for the first time!), but the shape is like new and I don't see any signs that they are getting tired or nearing end of life. My guess is this is about half the life, and I would be surprised if I get only 10 years out of them. I did a long distance ocean race last year and finished very well, with these very well used sails, which from any distance still look like new.


So 3 years? That might be for string sails, or very thin racing laminate sails. Cruising laminate sails protected with taffeta on both sides (Dyneema taffeta in my case) and laid up in an autoclave are incredibly durable, much more so than Dacron. They are not cheap, admittedly, but per mile I would say not much more expensive than really good Dacron like Marblehead. And per mile with good shape incomparably cheaper.