KISS Boats???????????

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by Junglebike

I can see it - one less system (wheel & bearings, steering cable/chain & associated pulleys & sprockets) versus a stick.

That does seem more KISS and less maintenance. Which reminds me that it's about time for my steering gear quinquennial maintenance greasing.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Well, no binnacle, no steering cables, no quadrant=simpler.

I don't mind a wheel, but a big wheel which has a direct feel like a tiller would intrude on the interior space.

Anyhow, my boat came with a tiller and I'm happy with it. It amazes cruisers, "Oh, you have a tiller!"

Hey! Us too . Not many cruising-level boats with tillers these days. I was initially concerned when I saw the tiller on this 15 ton Rafiki. But I love it, and would not easily go back to a wheel.

And yes, it is simpler than a wheel system — at least one like mine is: barn door, nothing but pintles and gudgeons. It’s all out in the open. Any problems are easily seen and fixed.

Not saying it’s better, and I don’t think a wheel is hard to maintain, but it certainly is simpler.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Hey! Us too . Not many cruising-level boats with tillers these days. I was initially concerned when I saw the tiller on this 15 ton Rafiki. But I love it, and would not easily go back to a wheel.

And yes, it is simpler than a wheel system — at least one like mine is: barn door, nothing but pintles and gudgeons. It’s all out in the open. Any problems are easily seen and fixed.

Not saying it’s better, and I don’t think a wheel is hard to maintain, but it certainly is simpler.

I was going to say something about how often we've heard of steering cables breaking but then I realized I've probably heard of broken tillers just as often.

Once on a starting line a port tacker crossed in front of me. I didn't see him coming and he didn't make it. In addition to putting a rather large hole in his starboard topsides it shoved his boat abruptly sideways. That sudden sideways movement caused his rudder to slam over and the tiller hit him in the ankle, breaking the tiller but fortunately not his leg. He wanted me to help pay for it all but I declined, port/starboard and all.

Oh, there's also the increased risk of leakage from the lower rudder bearing on wheel steered boats.

[Junglebike]

Originally Posted by wingssail

I was going to say something about how often we've heard of steering cables breaking but then I realized I've probably heard of broken tillers just as often.

Once on a starting line a port tacker crossed in front of me. I didn't see him coming and he didn't make it. In addition to putting a rather large hole in his starboard topsides it shoved his boat abruptly sideways. That sudden sideways movement caused his rudder to slam over and the tiller hit him in the ankle, breaking the tiller but fortunately not his leg. He wanted me to help pay for it all but I declined, port/starboard and all.

Oh, there's also the increased risk of leakage from the lower rudder bearing on wheel steered boats.

Ouch! Do you think a wheel steering system could have survived? That load would need to be absorbed by something. Seems like in that situation a snapped tiller is the least of one's concerns, so long as there's a way of lashing something together to get you steering again.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Well, no binnacle, no steering cables, no quadrant=simpler.

I don't mind a wheel, but a big wheel which has a direct feel like a tiller would intrude on the interior space.

Anyhow, my boat came with a tiller and I'm happy with it. It amazes cruisers, "Oh, you have a tiller!"

Doh. Yes, typical nuisance with cruisers. Them car owners wants wheels everywhere ;-)



Yes. Cables can be trouble. That's sure.


You are also right it takes a biggie wheel to feel like a rudder and a big wheel will change cockpit ergonomics (also interior ergonomics, in smaller boats).


So, yes.



It is sad to see so many wheels and few tillers on modern boats, now that we have such well designed and efficient rudder blades. A shame buyer's wishes based on colorful images drive what we get!


Cheers,
b.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Junglebike

I can see it - one less system (wheel & bearings, steering cable/chain & associated pulleys & sprockets) versus a stick. Also you can ditch your emergency tiller, so that's a few pounds!

Edit: Wingssail beat me to it!

One other thing is the ease of fitting a backup autopilot, though if you've got a wind vane that kind of takes care of it, with the benefit (sort of) of a redundant rudder.

Yes. As you said it.


My only comment the rudder of the windvane is never good enough as a spare / emergency rudder. It may help in some simple scenarios but not in the situations when the main rudder is likely to fail. ;-(


The area is often like 1 to 3 more or less.


Boats that have them and want an emergency system still must carry such a system onboard.



b.

[barnakiel]

Broken tillers or broken bones ... by tillers ...



Still, put your hand wrong way into the wheel and you get a cracked bone too!


b.

[Mr B]

I have a wheel, Its small and out of the way, It has an Autopilot,
The rudders are in a box inside the transom, and are external drop down rudders,
No water can get inside the boat from the rudders no matter what happens to them,

Its all very KISS,

But, Hahahaha, The cables to operate them have a tendency to explode the inner cable thru the outside cable,

Thats where the KISS comes to a screaming halt, Hahahahahaha

To get these cables out, Its any thing But KISS,
You have to disconnect the cables from the rudders, Not a big deal,
Then the wheel has to come off,
My Fridge has to be pulled out so I can get to the steering box behind it,
Its inaccessable from the outside, The cockpit,
Then the steering box has to be pulled out and pulled apart,
Releasing the steering cables,
Then the cables have to be pulled out thru the boat,
I have to take the trim off the walls in the rear bedrooms, unscrew the cables from the walls,
Then pull the cables thru the holes in the bulkheads thru the boat with a leader firmly attached to the cable,
These cables are stiff and dont go round corners very well,
They do run thru the inside of the boat in very small cavitys,
Putting the steering cables back into the steering box is another time consuming process,
They rotate opposite to each other,
Then getting the steering box out thru the hole and bolted up,
Then realigning the rudders with the steering wheel,
This is quite difficult if Its in the water, as you have to stand on your head to bolt the rudders up, and align them to the Steering wheel,
The rudders are under the bottom step of the transom,

This process only took three days, Floating on the boat,
But I did have to free up the spare steering cables I fortunately found in the front locker which had been sitting in water and had rusted up solid,
There are two steering cables, If one fails, I have no steering at all,
I did jury rig the motor to get me too a safe protected spot near the beach on an Island to do the repairs,

Cheers, Brian,

[HeinSdL]

On my boat both heads had the option to shower with the water getting pumped out via a push button next to the wash bowl. So these shower drains required a lot of kit and there would always be residual puddles of water as the pumps could never get rid of all the water in the drain. These entire arrangements I therefore eliminated: electrics, pumps, hoses, filters and indeed the through hulls with the showers now draining into the bilge which gets pumped out automatically. And while I was at it, I also rerouted both basins into the bilge and removed their respective through hulls too. 4 fewer holes in the hull gives me a very good feeling and the simplicity... it's great. This is how I try and set up my boat (have done other simplifications in addition) because to be frank, I don't want all this clutter to break down the whole time, or require servicing. Energy for servicing I therefore save up for all the essential kit.

[Jolly Roger]

Originally Posted by HeinSdL

On my boat both heads had the option to shower with the water getting pumped out via a push button next to the wash bowl. So these shower drains required a lot of kit and there would always be residual puddles of water as the pumps could never get rid of all the water in the drain. These entire arrangements I therefore eliminated: electrics, pumps, hoses, filters and indeed the through hulls with the showers now draining into the bilge which gets pumped out automatically. And while I was at it, I also rerouted both basins into the bilge and removed their respective through hulls too. 4 fewer holes in the hull gives me a very good feeling and the simplicity... it's great. This is how I try and set up my boat (have done other simplifications in addition) because to be frank, I don't want all this clutter to break down the whole time, or require servicing. Energy for servicing I therefore save up for all the essential kit.

That might be okay, if you sail in a lake half way up a frozen mountain in old Switzerland, but just wait till summer comes. You will need a world war two gas mask to go below with. Then you might as well go the whole hog, and route both heads into the bilge.

[sailorboy1]

I would never drain my shower to the bilge, that would just be nasty in the end.

I replaced my shower sump pump with a diaphragm pump that will suck a hairball and always completely drains the sump. It's been 3 years and I haven't touched it since, that's KISS!

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by HeinSdL

On my boat both heads had the option to shower with the water getting pumped out via a push button next to the wash bowl. So these shower drains required a lot of kit and there would always be residual puddles of water as the pumps could never get rid of all the water in the drain. These entire arrangements I therefore eliminated: electrics, pumps, hoses, filters and indeed the through hulls with the showers now draining into the bilge which gets pumped out automatically. And while I was at it, I also rerouted both basins into the bilge and removed their respective through hulls too. 4 fewer holes in the hull gives me a very good feeling and the simplicity... it's great. This is how I try and set up my boat (have done other simplifications in addition) because to be frank, I don't want all this clutter to break down the whole time, or require servicing. Energy for servicing I therefore save up for all the essential kit.

Have you lived aboard the boat with this setup? Your bilge is going to be one smelly, slimy concoction if you live abroad in the tropics. Especially if you leave tbe boat for awhile.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Paul L

Have you lived aboard the boat with this setup? Your bilge is going to be one smelly, slimy concoction if you live abroad in the tropics. Especially if you leave tbe boat for awhile.

totally agree! Even our shower sump, which we can clean fairly easily gets smelly pretty quickly... and so it gets cleaned. Doing so to one's whole bilge is not so likely to be done, and soap scum, hair and other debris will accumulate.

UGH...

Jim

[HeinSdL]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

totally agree! Even our shower sump, which we can clean fairly easily gets smelly pretty quickly... and so it gets cleaned. Doing so to one's whole bilge is not so likely to be done, and soap scum, hair and other debris will accumulate.

UGH...

Jim

Well so far so good. We have spent several months in extremely hot weather last couple of seasons in the Med and all is well. But.... couple of additional points:

• Those heads are not really meant for showering anyway, in my view (although they are used for that purpose occasionally). We also have soap and shampoo suitable for salt water so after swimming it's usually a case of washing & rinsing using the transom shower. Family is completely OK with this.
• The bilges get cleaned regularly with salt & fresh water. In fact, my bilges seem a lot better maintained than some of the really gross bilges I have come across which rarely get any care. I lift a floorboard or two, rinse the inside and close the floorboard. This also makes sure the entire belly of the boat is capable of said rinsing (no dodgy wiring, etc) which in my view is a prerequisite for a sailing boat, based on experience of handling wet sails & sailing gear down below which anyway introduces buckets of water.
• The one filter & pump are easy to reach and get cleaned regularly too (and that pump is always doing work monitoring & emptying the bilges, not just when an issue arises. Will the auto switch & pump kick in?? When an issue arises is not the moment to have to wander about the proper functioning of this pump.)
• The bilges although shallow have a central sump which holds about 2 litres. This sump is pumped out much faster than the showers can fill it so this is where any regular cleaning happens (mainly rinsing) but...
• - using showers during rough weather is (probably) not a good idea (anymore on my boat) while at sea, so does not happen in view of the water going everywhere. But anyway, showering while going through a rough patch? That would be new to me (am thinking really rough conditions). Unless it's just a rinse with fresh water, in which case no problem getting that water in the boat.

If it's about keeping things simple, this is for me a solution. I also don't have screens anywhere, just an AIS receiver with an app (I have the A158 easyTRX2S-IS-IGPS-IDVBT-N2K-WiFi, can strongly recommend it, and back up paper charts + simple old style Raymarine GPS), one central system monitoring device (batteries, tanks, temps) which removed endless wiring, etc.

And not having to spend time on eg the shower pumps (they do also break, tucked away in hard to reach spaces, it was not a matter of just cleaning them now and then) I invest the time in doing a lot of preventative maintenance on essential stuff. Engine, saildrive, fuel conditioning system, autopilot, rigging, fridge, solar power, water maker, etc.

Finally, I read some discussions on compostable toilets the other day, on boats. Now that seems to me a really gross idea, but it seems those using them are really pleased with the result. Which goes to show that keeping an open mind can lead to some cool results on these boats of ours which need a lot of care. It's probably not something I would do but the temptation of removing another 4 through hulls...

This is, so far, my interpretation of KISS...

[Paul L]

Good that dumping into your bilge is working for you. We use our shower practically everynight, so I can't see it working for us.
It's an interesting approach to simplify your boat so you have more time for preventative maintenance😁