Killer whales launch ‘orchestrated’ attacks on sailing boats

[Telesail]

Originally Posted by belizesailor

I dont think thats the case. Just take a stroll thru any seafood market...most species you see are not farm raised. Seafood is one of the few food sources we humans still harvest from the wild in large quantities and many fisheries are heavily pressured now.

Do you have a reference for that statement?

I will try to find the more recent figures but aquaculture has been growing faster than capture in terms of final consumption. I was referring to fish rather than all seafood and recall seeing a set of stats that showed farmed fish now exceeded wild fish. Here is the global chain for 2011 based on peer reviewed stats but will try to source the most recent report (if it is not behind a paywall)

[Telesail]

Originally Posted by Cadence

I think the comment made about our consumption of fish from the wild may have been short sighted by locality of the poster. Looking world wide?

I don’t have the stats for the UK but would bet that farmed fish is much less than 50% of UK fish consumption - the fisheries supply more than UK consumption and we export a great deal to the rest of Europe. However, around the world (and increasingly in the USA), farmed Tilapia is becoming ubiquitous as the “white fish” in a lot of pre-prepared meals. Not sure if it yet makes up 50% but farmed fish is on its way to overtaking wild fish (unfortunately this is a by product of massive overfishing).

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Telesail

(unfortunately this is a by product of massive overfishing).

That is exactly how free enterprise works, when farming becomes more profitable than fishing, fishing will be slowly abandoned, except for primitive cultures etc that only know fishing and can’t or won’t farm.
Yes of course fish populations have been massively overfished, evidence of that isn’t hard to find at all.

Use whaling for example, when I believe it was kerosene became widely available at a lower price than whale oil, whales weren’t hunted much.
Otherwise it’s possible that whales may have been hunted to a point where they couldn’t sustain a population.

If we left it alone, oil will be replaced by less expensive sources when they become actually less expensive, which if left alone will happen, just as for the majority of the world will one day eat farmed fish, or who knows maybe fish meat made from plants will replace wild fish.
There will always be a market for those willing to pay for wild fish though, sort of I guess like what the Japanese pay for Bluefin Tuna.
https://www.npr.org/2019/01/05/68252...n-tokyo-market

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by Manateeman

Buy cheap wood boat. Sail out somewhere remote. Sink boat or boat sinks cause it’s junk. Get in life raft. Write book that blames whales. Make money.
No one can contradict your statements. All evidence lost at sea.
Sounds like a plan to me.
Captain Mark and his offgassing manatee friends

I do hope you're joking about the Butlers faking the whales sinking their boat just to sell a few thousand copies of a book? I'd be surprised if the profits from the book (not exactly a NY Times number one best seller) would pay for a similar boat to the one they lost, and never mind going for more than 2 months without a decent meal or comfortable surroundings or the security of knowing you'd survive long enough to ever see land again.

But the most important take away from that book was that they had a manually operated portable watermaker so they could remain hydrated. They sort of made a big deal about that in the book and rightfully so because, though they both lost a lot of weight, they weren't dying of starvation and were able to catch fish and turtles and birds to replenish their food stores, but they quickly used up their stores of bottled water and a solar still wouldn't have provided the amount of water needed. So, the hand held watermaker probably saved their lives and from reading this book I made a mental note to not attempt an offshore passage without one. Though, with modern satellite epirbs, the likelihood of spending long enough in a liferaft to die of dehydration is greatly decreased before being rescued, I'd hate to bet my life on that unnecessarily. So, I think a hand held watermaker is an important item to have in a ditch bag just in case the technology doesn't work or rescue forces are unable to reach me for some other reason.

[seandepagnier]

If we left it alone, oil will be replaced by less expensive sources when they become actually less expensive,

other sources of energy already are actually less expensive.


In our own boats, sail power is much cheaper than diesel power but people don't use sail power much because you have to raise sails, put in reefs etc so they just use diesel power which is more expensive but doesn't require any effort.



Even if you eliminate physical effort with electric winches etc, the mental effort of sailing is likely the reason many boats motor when they should be sailing.

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by seandepagnier

other sources of energy already are actually less expensive.


In our own boats, sail power is much cheaper than diesel power but people don't use sail power much because you have to raise sails, put in reefs etc so they just use diesel power which is more expensive but doesn't require any effort.



Even if you eliminate physical effort with electric winches etc, the mental effort of sailing is likely the reason many boats motor when they should be sailing.

I’d like to see a comparison of costs of a motorboat versus a sailboat with an equivalent amount of living space. I prefer sailboats but when all costs are taken into account I’m not sure which is cheaper.

Hard to know why you see so many folks motoring when they “could” be sailing. I’ve certainly been guilty of that for various reasons that would not be obvious to anyone not aboard my boat, such as needing to charge my batteries or to have hot water for washing the evening meals dishes or so I can get to shore before a marina or store closes or to get to work on time or to accommodate a guests schedule or because an unseen crew member prefers a level surface while preparing a meal or my crew is still drying her hair or applying makeup and wants me to wait until she’s finished before hoisting sails. These reasons and many more, in addition to the laziness you cite, but how can anyone know the real reason why the skipper of a sailboat chooses to operate under power rather than sail on any given day unless he comes aboard and asks?

[Telesail]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Use whaling for example, when I believe it was kerosene became widely available at a lower price than whale oil, whales weren’t hunted much.

Too true. The oil industry never got its due credit for saving the whales...🙂🐋

The “problem” with oil is that it is awfully cheap (as are gas and coal) on a marginal cost basis - still cheaper than almost anything else unless in a remote location (such as a sailboat farther from a refueling point than the size of its tanks allow it to motor).

[LittleWing77]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Fascinating...

All of a sudden, I'm thinking of Mr. Spock on Star Trek!

LittleWing

[dannc]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

...

But the most important take away from that book was that they had a manually operated portable watermaker so they could remain hydrated. They sort of made a big deal about that in the book and rightfully so because, though they both lost a lot of weight, they weren't dying of starvation and were able to catch fish and turtles and birds to replenish their food stores, but they quickly used up their stores of bottled water and a solar still wouldn't have provided the amount of water needed. So, the hand held watermaker probably saved their lives and from reading this book I made a mental note to not attempt an offshore passage without one. Though, with modern satellite epirbs, the likelihood of spending long enough in a liferaft to die of dehydration is greatly decreased before being rescued, I'd hate to bet my life on that unnecessarily. So, I think a hand held watermaker is an important item to have in a ditch bag just in case the technology doesn't work or rescue forces are unable to reach me for some other reason.

Are you sure they had a water maker? Did they even have water makers in the early 1970's?

I read the book 40ish years ago but I don't remember them having a water maker. I do remember them suffering terribly from lack of water, and to a lesser extent, food. Then they started catching fish, turtle(s) and maybe birds. One of the things that stood out to me is that to get moisture, they would suck the eyeballs and spinal cords of the critters they caught. As well as drink the turtle blood.

Amazing how they survived.

Later,
Dan

[owly]

Originally Posted by dannc

Are you sure they had a water maker? Did they even have water makers in the early 1970's?

I read the book 40ish years ago but I don't remember them having a water maker. I do remember them suffering terribly from lack of water, and to a lesser extent, food. Then they started catching fish, turtle(s) and maybe birds. One of the things that stood out to me is that to get moisture, they would suck the eyeballs and spinal cords of the critters they caught. As well as drink the turtle blood.

Amazing how they survived.

Later,
Dan

We can't drink salt water, but I have to wonder about water absorption through the skin if you spend time most submerged in water like the sailors who were on the navy ship that sank coming home across the Pacific at the end of WWII... At the very least it would reduce your water loss through sweat. I suppose considering that fat is hydrophobic...is that the word? You wouldn't take in seawater in any significant quantity. The ocean salt content is almost exactly the same as your body fluids, so the salt in the water is only a problem if the water is taken through the mouth & digestive system. I've rehydratred animals that were dehydrated by injecting saline solution under the skin. The problem of course is purity where sea water is concerned. If you could purify it enough to inject it under the skin, it would probably do a good job of keeping you alive.



One of my favorite ideas is the pedal powered water maker... or perhaps powered by a rowing machine. Good exercise and the numbers can work. The problem with conventional watermakers is that they run a continuous cycle, bleeding off high pressure water constantly to keep the salt level down. Horsepower = flow in GPM * pressure in PSI / 1710, so it's obvious that a lot of energy is wasted in a continuous process. The alternative would be to have a large tank full of seawater with a circulator in it. The entire tank would be held at 1200 PSI or so with the membrane in the middle. As water is incompressible, you could fill the tank at low pressure, and the only high pressure flow would be what is put in to replace the water that goes through the membrane. I don't know what the discharge percentage compared to the fresh water flow is, but I suspect it's between 75% and 90%. Eliminate this high pressure discharge flow and the energy requirement would be somewhere around 10% - 25% of what it is on a conventional system.

There really is no incentive for manufacturers to make high efficiency systems unfortunately.... We are used to wasting energy.

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by dannc

Are you sure they had a water maker? Did they even have water makers in the early 1970's?

I read the book 40ish years ago but I don't remember them having a water maker. I do remember them suffering terribly from lack of water, and to a lesser extent, food. Then they started catching fish, turtle(s) and maybe birds. One of the things that stood out to me is that to get moisture, they would suck the eyeballs and spinal cords of the critters they caught. As well as drink the turtle blood.

Amazing how they survived.

Later,
Dan

We're talking about Bill and Simone Butler, right? Yes, they had one of those little hand pump watermakers and credited it with keeping them alive by keeping them hydrated during their long ordeal. Most of us have adequate fat stores to supply the energy for survival for quite awhile, but we only last a matter of days in tropical heat with no hydration.

Our Last Chance: Sixty-Six Deadly Days Adrift: Butler ...
https://www.amazon.com/Our-Last-Chan.../dp/0963251902
This book tells the true story of Bill Butler's adventure while adrift at sea for 66 days in a life raft after his 39 foot sailboat was bashed and sunk by whales. He tells how he and his wife survived by catching fish with their hands and by making fresh water from salt water using a lifesaving hand pump.

4.1/5(11)
Author: Bill Butler, Simonne Butler
Price: $6.43
Format: Hardcover

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by owly

We can't drink salt water, but I have to wonder about water absorption through the skin if you spend time most submerged in water like the sailors who were on the navy ship that sank coming home across the Pacific at the end of WWII... At the very least it would reduce your water loss through sweat. I suppose considering that fat is hydrophobic...is that the word? You wouldn't take in seawater in any significant quantity. The ocean salt content is almost exactly the same as your body fluids, so the salt in the water is only a problem if the water is taken through the mouth & digestive system. I've rehydratred animals that were dehydrated by injecting saline solution under the skin. The problem of course is purity where sea water is concerned. If you could purify it enough to inject it under the skin, it would probably do a good job of keeping you alive.



One of my favorite ideas is the pedal powered water maker... or perhaps powered by a rowing machine. Good exercise and the numbers can work. The problem with conventional watermakers is that they run a continuous cycle, bleeding off high pressure water constantly to keep the salt level down. Horsepower = flow in GPM * pressure in PSI / 1710, so it's obvious that a lot of energy is wasted in a continuous process. The alternative would be to have a large tank full of seawater with a circulator in it. The entire tank would be held at 1200 PSI or so with the membrane in the middle. As water is incompressible, you could fill the tank at low pressure, and the only high pressure flow would be what is put in to replace the water that goes through the membrane. I don't know what the discharge percentage compared to the fresh water flow is, but I suspect it's between 75% and 90%. Eliminate this high pressure discharge flow and the energy requirement would be somewhere around 10% - 25% of what it is on a conventional system.

There really is no incentive for manufacturers to make high efficiency systems unfortunately.... We are used to wasting energy.

There already are watermakers designed for sailboats that constantly uses the energy from already filtered water to help pressurize incoming water so that energy is not wasted via an ETD (energy transfer device). My Sea Recovery watermaker does this and Spectra also offers watermakers that work this way and there are several other companies who make watermakers that do this as well. As you suggest, the presence of an ETD in your system allows the use of a much smaller pump, which requires much less energy to run it. My system puts out about 16GPH using a 1/3hp electric motor drawing approximately 28amps DC. Almost magic!

[dannc]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

We're talking about Bill and Simone Butler, right?

...

Our Last Chance: Sixty-Six Deadly Days Adrift: Butler ...
https://www.amazon.com/Our-Last-Chan.../dp/0963251902
This book tells the true story of Bill Butler's adventure while adrift at sea for 66 days in a life raft after his 39 foot sailboat was bashed and sunk by whales. He tells how he and his wife survived by catching fish with their hands and by making fresh water from salt water using a lifesaving hand pump.

4.1/5(11)
Author: Bill Butler, Simonne Butler
Price: $6.43
Format: Hardcover

WOW!

We are talking about similar but different incidents!

I am talking about Surviving a Savage Sea, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dougal_Robertson

Which brings up an interesting point. I wonder how many boats that goi missing were sunk by whales. I know this is a strange idea but whales do sink yachts more often than we think.

There was a self reported survey regarding boat and whale collisions years ago. Maybe 10ish years back? What was interesting is that there were about 10 self reported collisions each year on average and about one boat in ten sank on average.

The big problem with the survey is that it was self reported which meant you had to know about it to make a report. And more importantly, survive to make the report if you knew of the survey. I think there are far more collisions between boats and whales than is known. I say that because you will read about collisions in various media including CF and TF and they seem to happen more often than one would think. Or at least I would think.

The link I posted about Surviving A Savage seas, links to another couple who survived for over 100 days in a life raft after the boat was sunk by whales, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauric...Maralyn_Bailey

Steve Callahan, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Callahan, thinks his boat was sunk when it hit a whale.

Another link from one of the above links. Never heard of this incident but his boat was capsized by Orcas, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambrogio_Fogar

I also wonder if more collisions are happening as the whale population recovers.

Later,
Dan

[owly]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

There already are watermakers designed for sailboats that constantly uses the energy from already filtered water to help pressurize incoming water so that energy is not wasted via an ETD (energy transfer device). My Sea Recovery watermaker does this and Spectra also offers watermakers that work this way and there are several other companies who make watermakers that do this as well. As you suggest, the presence of an ETD in your system allows the use of a much smaller pump, which requires much less energy to run it. My system puts out about 16GPH using a 1/3hp electric motor drawing approximately 28amps DC. Almost magic!

The average human can put out about 1/3 of that amount of horsepower, so ideally you should be able to generate 3 or 4 gallons an hour. Considering that an average individual usage of half a gallon or so per day 10 minutes of exercise a day should provide sufficient water. The ideal device would probably be a sliding seat rowing frame of something of that nature to drive the pump. That would allow you to utilize quite a few muscle groups. A pedal system would be the easiest to design though. A nice workout when you are on a long passage would be a good thing, and 10 minutes isn't very long. A nice workout could provide enough for a fresh water shower.

[Scorpius]

Originally Posted by dannc

WOW!

Which brings up an interesting point. I wonder how many boats that goi missing were sunk by whales. I know this is a strange idea but whales do sink yachts more often than we think.

There was a self reported survey regarding boat and whale collisions years ago. Maybe 10ish years back? What was interesting is that there were about 10 self reported collisions each year on average and about one boat in ten sank on average.

The big problem with the survey is that it was self reported which meant you had to know about it to make a report. And more importantly, survive to make the report if you knew of the survey. I think there are far more collisions between boats and whales than is known. I say that because you will read about collisions in various media including CF and TF and they seem to happen more often than one would think. Or at least I would think. . . .
Later,
Dan

I think there is a BIG difference between colliding with a whale and being attacked by a whale. Whales sleep on the surface and a silent sailboat in the wrong place at the wrong time can easily run into one. Freighters have too. One came into Vancouver a few years ago with a dead humpback draped over it's bulbous bow. Apparently the freighter broke the whale's back when it struck, killing the whale instantly. Heaven only knows how many whales are killed this way as I imagine the vast majority just slide off into the night. The ship's crew would probably be totally unaware of the incident.

Tristan Jones (as much as you can believe him) tells of being sunk by a startled whale whose tail slammed down on his (wood) boat after Tristan sailed into it in the middle of the night. A collision, not an attack.

I think collisions with whales are probably FAR more common than boats being attacked by whales and the two scenarios should not be confused or lumped in together.

Just my two cents worth.