Ketch or Sloop for Caribbean and ocean crossing ?

[OBT]

I have owned both sloops and ketches. I loved my ketch. Jig and jigger (mizzen and jib) was an easy combination of sail to do for short legs and quite effective. My ketch was an Allied Seawind I and I put over 10,000 miles under her keel in all kinds of weather. You will get used to a ketch rig, if that's the way you go, in about an hour and adjust from there. The mizzen mast makes a great handhold for heavy weather.

Here is my Stella in Little River Nova Scotia (tide range 30+feet.

[Michael Pope]

Back in the years when I was a Rigger for a living we considered that God gave us multi spared boats because we were good people and good riggers should be rich!. Now I am old but not rich just weak! I think small sails and small women are the way to go ! And complimentary. Cost definitely less important especially on dark squally nights . It is not getting there that is so important but rather the fun you have on the way . Big Sails are for Big Young Men. Try to remember that multi sparred boats have much higher moments of Inertia which makes a big difference if the hull form tends to roll easily
or hobby horse easily Sic.. if have two spars, have one big and one small.
History tells us that without knowing what a moment of inertia is Mike Pope
Never trust mechanical easy to furl systems. They are designed to make you hate them ONE DAY!

[Stewie12]

I have owned both. The mizzen on the ketch spent most of its time doing nothing, as it did not contribute much to the sailing performance for the extra work involved. So next time I would go back to a sloop for sailing performance.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Clemroc

Thank you all for your answers!
Here are some additional details to my query:

- The size I am looking for should be between 36 and 44 feet.
- My priority is safety, so I want to make sure sails/rigging are in good condition. With that in mind, if I have to change the rigging or sails for a sloop compared to a ketch, what kind of difference in costs would I expect? (i.e: double the cost for a ketch?)

For what it's worth, I do like the aesthetics of ketch rigs, and I like center-cockpits (I feel safer there than in aft-cockpits, especially for night-watch in a storm).

Thanks a lot for your help!
- Clemroc

Look yourself and make up your own mind, but if you look at ketches 36' I think you will find that it doesn't work very well. I'd stick to the top end of your size range or even go a bit bigger. The bigger the boat, the better the motion, more seaworthy, better offshore, easier and safer to move around on it in a seaway. This is a big deal if you are highly concerned about safety. Worse only for docking (and cost).


Cost of sails should not be double. Smaller sails can be made of lighter material. And the sails will last longer.



But note that ketches have all kinds of sail plan possibilities sloops (and even cutters) don't have so if you start splashing out on mizzen staysails, fishermen, mizzen spinnakers -- all bets are off! But this could be worth it!

[Joyful Noise]

A cutter gives you about as much sail plan flexibility as a ketch or a yawl without cluttering up the cockpit. the only argument that ads value to a two master is that, if you lose one, you have a spare.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Stewie12

I have owned both. The mizzen on the ketch spent most of its time doing nothing, as it did not contribute much to the sailing performance for the extra work involved. So next time I would go back to a sloop for sailing performance.

That's what happens with (a) the mizzen is too small in relation to the main; and/or (b) mizzen and main are too close together.


Hence the advice not to go with too small a ketch and/or mizzen too small in relation to main.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Joyful Noise

A cutter gives you about as much sail plan flexibility as a ketch or a yawl without cluttering up the cockpit. the only argument that ads value to a two master is that, if you lose one, you have a spare.

A cutter is what I have been running for the last going on 11 years, and the sail plan flexibility is good. Cutter is definitely a good rig for offshore sailing and a good compromise between sail plan flexibility and upwind efficiency, being almost as good in that respect as a sloop and far better than a ketch. No wonder cutter is the most common rig for offshore sailing.



But a ketch adds quite a bit of sail plan flexibility even to a cutter -- and there is no law against having an inner forestay on a ketch too.



So a cutter's white sails are main, stays'l, jib. A ketch with an inner forestay may have mizzen, main, stays'l, jib, mizzen stays'l, fisherman. Exactly twice the number, so many more combinations.



And there are a LOT more advantages to ketch than just having a spare mast (and even that doesn't apply if you have a triatic stay). See previous posts.

[roverhi]

The ketch rig was designed to overcome the problems with cotton and hank on sails. Cotton sails got really heavy when wet so handling them was a real problem even on smaller boats. Reducing sail was also quicker and easier with a ketch. You could drop the main just by loosing the halyard when equipped with lazy jacks instantly cutting sail area by as much as 50%. Continue sailing under jib and mizzen called running under ‘Jin and jigger without having to leave the cockpit if halyard run aft or go forward of the mast if it wasn’t. Headsails were also smaller so easier to haul forward and handle.

With synthetic sails and roller furling the need for a split rig on boats under 40’ is pretty much gone. I’m sure there are many who would say that’s true for under 50’. Sails are not as heavy as formerly. Roller furling has made the need to change a headsail almost non existent and reefing the main very easy.

[boatman61]

Done a few miles on both types, sloop and ketch.
The rule of thumb to my mind is 40ft is the smallest you should go with a ketch..
Love the rig myself tho'.. what sold me on them in the end was a 17,000nm trip around 90% of which was spent jib and jigger.. Florida, St Martin, Panama, Nuku Hiva, Samoa, Vanuatu, Darwin and Perth.
A two person crew on a 54ft Bruce Roberts ketch..

[Pegu Club]

I have only owned or sailed on sloops, and they do look nice under sail, that said, a ketch under full sail is nicer on the eye, just saltier all the way around in all the right ways, jmo.

I would think with the advent of lighter sails (not cotton canvas) a ketch would be all be easier still for sail handling in all circumstances. Some day I may find out first hand,

Fair winds,

[jharding]

I love my cutter ketch rig, wouldn't give it up for anything, so easy to adjust sails for conditions, Mine is a Irwin 52 center cockpit, love it.

[Svsumurun]

Originally Posted by Clemroc

Hello forums!

I have sailed sloops, but have never sailed ketchs. My understanding is that sloops have cheaper maintenance cost for sails/rigging, and are easier to manage without crew or with just one additional crewmember. I also heard that sloops tend to be faster when sailing windward.

My instinct tells me that a ketch shouldn't be that much of a challenge - after all, despite more sails, they still work exactly the same. However, having never sailed a ketch, I am hoping to learn from your varied experiences.

- Is a ketch harder to sail than a sloop?
- Are the maintenance cost / costs of changing the rigging / costs of buying new sails for a ketch much more than for a sloop, or just barely?
- In your opinion, would you travel across the Caribbean with a ketch or a sloop? What about crossing the Pacific ocean?

Thanks in advance, looking forward to your opinion!
- Clemroc

Owned a bunch of sloops before buying Sumurun , and had never sailed a ketch before , and yes , it looks like it should be harder , but it's actually easier in a lot of ways , just more rigging all over the place! The mizzen can almost work like a self steering device , and we find it a lot easier to get her to settle down when it's not 'ideal conditions'
More expensive , not really - new main last year was the same price as one I bought 7 years ago for a 30' sloop , so maybe a bit more if you were refitting them all, but really, how often does that happen ? Actuallly on a ketch, probably less because you won't use the main as much ( see all the jib and jigger comments above)
I would do the Carib or the pacific in either , that really comes down to what boat and its condition and the captain - not the sail plan!
We weren't looking for a ketch, and bought this one because of everything else about it , but I have to admit , being a really cool looking boat is neat too !

Before the flames start - sloops can be cool looking too

[CarlF]

Back when you could buy a boat as either a ketch or sloop, the ketch rig was not an expensive option. That's likely because shorter mainmast can be made of smaller and thinner aluminum sections. And all the rigging is lighter and cheaper. I read someplace that the load on a sloop's shroud is twice the shroud load of the shorter ketch mainmast on the same boat.

And the total sail area of a ketch and sloop are about the same. But on a ketch the sailmaker uses a lighter and less expensive cloth. Of course the labor for the extra sail is more but things come closer to balancing out price-wise than you'd first guess.

[CarlF]

I've found ketches (at least those over 40') are much preferred to sloops by my wife (and most women it seems).

I used to need a crew with plenty of muscle to sweat in a big genoa but now that it's often just my wife and myself, an easier to winch ketch headsail makes tacking less of a chore.

The same goes for raising sails. A sloop mainsail on a 40+ft boat is a lot heavier to raise than a ketch mainsail on the same boat. And the mizzen is so small you likely don't even need a halyard winch except for tensioning.

And when the wind is above 20 knots, sailing without the mainsail in jib and jigger is much less scary than a reefed sloop. In a well designed ketch, you can take your hands off the wheel going upwind in 25 knots apparent. It's a glorious feel.

If my wife had her way, we'd never have the mainsail up going upwind in anything over 10 knots. Even if we were going a bit slower (which is debatable) the feel of the boat is much less scary.

As I said, this is for ketches over 40ft. Smaller it doesn't make much sense. And there are a lot of bad ketches out there with too small mizzen's and poor balance. But it doesn't take too much "asking around" to find ketch designs that are fast and a joy to sail.

[Clemroc]

Thank you all for your continued inputs!

I am leaning more and more towards ketch-rigs, although my budget most likely won't let me go above the 40-44 feet (keeping in mind I will have to invest in maintenance and equipment before setting sail).

I do have a few models in mind, not sure if this thread is still the right place to discuss them (moderators, please let me know), but here goes:

I am quite fond of the Morgan Outisland (41, 415, 416) and Morgan Catalina 44. The layouts are nice, the 2 cabins are perfect for my friend and I, they are center-cockpits with skeg-hung rudders, and the draft is a low 4.2 (perfect for what we intend to do in the Caribbean).

Sloop-wise, the only boats that really caught my attention were the Beneteau Oceanis (300 and 350), for which the interior layouts fulfill our needs, but am unsure there will be enough space.

In any case, as was pointed out, my goal is to enjoy the trip and stay safe - I am in absolutely no rush to get to the destination, so I don't mind if my trip takes longer.

Let me know what you think!
Cheers,
Clemroc