Kelly-Peterson 44 performance?

[Bowdrie]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

There was a guy with a KP44 at the YC years ago. He took it to Mexico and back. He tried to race it, but it just wouldn't point with the race boats. He sold it and bought a Santa Cruz 50.

I remember working on a new SC50 ~40 years ago, (installing a refrigeration system,) I thought to myself, "If I cut the mast off at the upper spreaders this thing might make a reasonable cruiser", then the glaze over my eyes went away and reality returned.
Comparing it to a KP44 for a "cruising" boat, (especially one that needs to be easily handled long term/long distance by a middle-aged couple,) is ludicrous.

[MicHughV]

Boat designers/builders like to throw around all sorts of numbers and formula's, etc, but at the end of the day, they don't amount too much.
Boats get weighed down with personal gear, sails get old and stretch, and quite frankly a good sailor can even make a slug go fast, while a newbie couldn't get a lick of speed from a race boat.
Then too, wind and wave conditions can be all over the map.

Taken all together, SA/D, doesn't account for reefed sails, old sails, dinghy on davits, solar panels, gensets, sea condition, etc, ad infinitum.

Some boats, and I'd count the KP44 as one of them, are just a generally well behaved boat regardless of any of the above.

Throw the SA/D number out the window, and take the boat out on a sea trial and see for yourself how it manages a variety of wind/sea conditions.

My 2c is that the only number worth a damn is the SOP number.....Seat of pants number, making sure that the pants in question are yours !

[massnspace]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

Boat designers/builders like to throw around all sorts of numbers and formula's, etc, but at the end of the day, they don't amount too much.
Boats get weighed down with personal gear, sails get old and stretch, and quite frankly a good sailor can even make a slug go fast, while a newbie couldn't get a lick of speed from a race boat.
Then too, wind and wave conditions can be all over the map.

Taken all together, SA/D, doesn't account for reefed sails, old sails, dinghy on davits, solar panels, gensets, sea condition, etc, ad infinitum.

Some boats, and I'd count the KP44 as one of them, are just a generally well behaved boat regardless of any of the above.

Throw the SA/D number out the window, and take the boat out on a sea trial and see for yourself how it manages a variety of wind/sea conditions.

My 2c is that the only number worth a damn is the SOP number.....Seat of pants number, making sure that the pants in question are yours !

I’m not sure if you have ever purchased a boat before, but you cannot just “take the boat out on a sea trial and see how it manages a variety of wind/sea conditions”. Unless you can somehow ask for a 7-day sea trial. And I don’t think that request will be approved.

And I disagree that the numbers don’t mean anything. They mean a lot. Sailing is mostly physics…..numbers.

[Bowdrie]

You can't just "throw all the numbers out", that's a gross over-simplification.
That quite different numbers yield different parameters of performance and other things is a given that can be easily proved.
With two boats of ~equal length, that the boat with a high SA/D and low D/L ratio will, for example, accelerate out of a tack faster than a low SA/D, high D/L ratio boat is not up for debate.
If a person was trying to choose between boats that had similar numbers, then the choice moves more into the realm of subjective/personal.
When we talk about "working sail", quibbling about the difference between a SA/D of 14 and 15 is slicing things too thin to make much practical difference, but the difference between 14 and 20 is readily apparent.
The same with D/L ratios.

[MicHughV]

Just for the record.
I built my first boat from scratch, then owned two more after that, plus sailed on countless others.
All told I've spent some 35 years at sea.
Not sure if that qualifies for anything in your book, and I probably doubt it, so I'll just move on here.

[Jim Cate]

And I disagree that the numbers don’t mean anything. They mean a lot. Sailing is mostly physics…..numbers.

I surely agree with this statement. The numbers give, at the very least, an unemotional idea about potential performance, one not biased by ownership involvement or brand loyalty or word of mouth "knowledge".

In particular, the PHRF ratings, especially for classes with lots of members, do reflect what can actually be achieved with a given design. Lots of non-racers decry those ratings because they don't understand how they are derived.

PHRF ratings are not based on some set of measurements, but rather on the actual recorded results of many, many races. Yes, folks racing are more likely to have well tuned boats and to sail them more attentively than typical cruisers, but you must remember that the data includes not just the winning boats but also "tail end charlie" whose performance is more like that of the cruiser. And the races involved are a compilation of many different courses. Some are typical triangle or windward-leeward events, but there are also point to point distance races in the mix... in short, kinda like what cruisers experience.

So, IMO looking at PHRF ratings is indeed a good means of comparing the overall performance of boats that one may be considering... boats that there is no practical means of personally testing in a sea trial. If sailing performance is an important factor in your choice of boats, this is a useful and reasonably factual tool at your disposal.

Jim

[MicHughV]

We are talking about a cruising boat here, one that will likely be encumbered by all sorts of cruising gear.
When the wind pipes up and seas start breaking over the bow, one is unlikely to be thinking about what the SA/D of that boat might be or used to be.
I'm willing to bet that the majority of sailboat owners could not tell you the SA/D of their particular boat.

[Jim Cate]

We are talking about a cruising boat here, one that will likely be encumbered by all sorts of cruising gear.
When the wind pipes up and seas start breaking over the bow, one is unlikely to be thinking about what the SA/D of that boat might be or used to be.

Well, in fact at that stage would you (experienced cruiser) not be reefed WAY down and the calculated SA/D ratio long since made immaterial?

However, when one is ghosting along in very light airs the benefits of a good SA/D might well pop into your ken! And considering such numbers when choosing a design makes sense to this old sailor... perhaps not to you.

Jim

[Wandering1]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Well, in fact at that stage would you (experienced cruiser) not be reefed WAY down and the calculated SA/D ratio long since made immaterial?

However, when one is ghosting along in very light airs the benefits of a good SA/D might well pop into your ken! And considering such numbers when choosing a design makes sense to this old sailor... perhaps not to you.

Jim

How do you take account of the huge amount of gear a typical cruiser carries in your SA/D figures based on racing trim boats?
On our 44ft boat, we have two folding bikes, two full sets of dive gear, two sewing machines, a diesel genset, two kiteboards and 7 kites, a wing board and 3 wings, a paddleboard, a hard dinghy and 15hp engine, two fridges, a full and comprehensive tool kit and a huge store of spares. We know our hull is heavy displacement, but it carries all this gear and keeps us above its original marks. If you add all of this kit to a similar length modern, fast bottom hull, it doesn't do so well.
We sail exceptionally well for a 41,000lb boat loaded. The boat is ketch rigged with a tall main mast such that off the wind we can carry plenty of sail area, but she also sails well in light conditions, even with all this gear onboard. The reason is hull design. A hemisperical hull shape won't give you high planning speeds, ever, but in light conditions, it is far more efficient than a flat bottom high surface area modern hull.

[barnakiel]

Yes. It has a low SA to D ratio. It will not be the fastest sailboat IN LIGHT AIRS.


But it will sail very well and be comfortable in stronger conditions.


If you want upwind performance, get a J-boat, an X-Yachto or a First or Arcona.


Horses for the courses. But a KP44 is a very good sailing boat by any measure. In cruising terms.


b.

[Jim Cate]

. We know our hull is heavy displacement, but it carries all this gear and keeps us above its original marks.

Interesting... how do you account for adding weight and not sinking below the design WL? And I've never actually seen a "hemispherical" hull shape. Could you tell us what design she is so I could have a look?

And it is not clear just what you mean in your last sentence, but are you saying that your heavy displacement hull has less wetted area than a lighter, more modern hull of the same length? That's kinda hard to envision.

Look, no one is saying that a PHRF rating gives a perfect prediction of how a boat will sail in cruising trim but it is an available metric of overall performance. When researching designs, knowing that it isn't likely that one can actually sail all of them personally, I think it is a useful tool and merits consideration.

Jim

[Don C L]

I was surprised, thought maybe it’s a typo… 13 is low and the PHRF is a tad high I see. In my recollection though she really charged quite well uphill. But she wasn’t designed with racing in mind. The Santa Cruz 50 is a whole different beast. I think I’d still rather go upwind in the KP44. At least if I wanted to sleep well.

[jomoman]

i purchased a Formosa 46 (KP44 copy) and spent 4 years re-fitting everything, electric, plumbing, electronics, water maker, engine etc.
have sailed her all over So. Cal and mexico. love the boat and performance.
the decks i completely removed, new core and then fiberglassed. the old teak decks leaked and rotted the core.
this is my 14th boat and probably the last one. have sailed her now for 6 years and have no complaints. not a racer just a comfortable cruiser.
joe Moore
SV/ FINALE
FORMOSA 46 #809

[MJH]

Originally Posted by massnspace

We are considering offering on a Kelly-Peterson 44, primarily because we want a boat of this type that had decent sailing performance. Most reviews I have read seem to indicate this to be the case.

But SAILBOAT DATA puts the SA/D at just under 13. ???

That seems very low. Is it correct?

Anyone out there who owns this design, or have sailed on this design, and can comment on this design?

Thanks….

You are interested in a Sailboat but don't say what your plan or location for sailing it are.

Yes, the SA/D is 13 but the COMFORT ratio is 38.2 and the CAPSIZE ratio is 1.66 from my database of over 4,000 sailboats. Can you see the tradeoff there?

It is also cutter rigged. Thats good for bad offshore weather but won't do as well upwind...I know, I own a cutter of similar size and weight. It sailed wonderfully on my roundtrip to Hawaii and especially hove-to in a gale off the Washington Coast (Graveyard of the Pacific).

I agree, numbers do tell you what you are buying.

Good Luck.

[sailingharry]

I couldn't agree more with Jim's endorsement of PHRF. PHRF is not a "racer" rule, it is a handicap that aims to allow different boats to race against each other. It is an experience based comparison system. And, as such, it is a far better overall metric than most other handicap systems, and almost all other "ratio" systems (sa/d, etc.).

Almost any boat will comfortably make 6+ in 10-15 kts. But if you want to make 6 in 8 kts, or 3 in 5kts, you may find 30,000 lbs a challenge (I've had my 22000lb 43' at 8kts in 8kts of wind several times). And if seeing speeds in the teens is thrilling, I've often broke 10 and currently have topped at 15.9kts -- not sure you'll ever see those speeds with 30,000 lbs.

My boat is a Saga 43, PHRF around 80. Of 54 made, many have many 10's of thousands of offshore miles and crossed numerous oceans, with at least on circumnavigation. They are a comfortable offshore boat for a cruising couple.

A 30,000 lb boat rating 130 may well be a comfortable and safe offshore boat. But I doubt it is fun to sail in winds under 10kts, and may rarely see boat speeds over 10kts.

Many people have wildly differing views of what they want from a boat. Your objectives may differ from mine. But to your question, it will not be the first boat in you cruising fleet to the anchorage. To quote a friend of mine who sold her Shannon to get a Saga, "I sail a lot more now."