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15-03-2018, 15:32
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#92
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: On the boat
Boat: LAGOON 400
Posts: 2,347
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Re: Keel Failure in the Canaries
Quote:
Originally Posted by robert sailor
What a load of garbage..everything is joined together on a sailboat, that's the way all boats are built. Your dangerous vibrations that designers have not been able to solve...more silly garbage. How to build a good boat is very well known and has been for years.
Modern high production boats, including yours are not built up to the highest quality standards they are built down to the lowest price and you can not expect high quality and low price to go hand in hand. Modern high production boats are built to a price point, that leads and everything else follows. Designers today are challenged for sure but it's how to get the job done as cheap as possible not as good as possible.
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cheap strategy, attack if you not know facts
I do not know much about monohulls however, every sensible human would be concerned about large weight hanging and want to see evidence there is no structural issues before stepping on boat.
I do not know the stresses that mast/keel interaction creates, but you do not know them either. Dismissing my argument as baseless, without any evidence, well I have seen this type behaviour before and does not end well.
What needs to happen is architects put some sensors in there, ask crazy french to RTW in roaring forties and analyze forces.
Then you will get better idea and how to make keel really safe without making boat going too slow.
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15-03-2018, 15:49
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#93
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Irish Sea
Posts: 1,321
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Re: Keel Failure in the Canaries
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowpetrel
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Physics is physics, 2-3 tons of iron/lead definitely need a sufficient support.
Quote:
Originally Posted by arsenelupiga
I do not know much about monohulls however, every sensible human would be concerned about large weight hanging and want to see evidence there is no structural issues before stepping on boat.
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Don't worry, you won't have to lift it . Do you fear stepping in a car, knowing that the wheels are not bound to the car "just" bolted, and can fall off, killing you in a crash?!
__________________
Useful as a fireproof bottom paint...
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15-03-2018, 15:55
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#94
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 6,140
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Re: Keel Failure in the Canaries
Quote:
Originally Posted by robert sailor
I agree with you that no manufacturer wants their boats coming apart but some go to greater lengths than others to insure it doesn't happen in normal use.
High production boat builders go to great lengths to save a buck and it shows in a variety of ways. Fortunately probably 98% of the boats built sit in a marina most of their lives and never travel very far from home base even when they are used and only in favorable weather conditions. This fact alone pretty much ensures that they can carry on telling their stories about how well they are built and how capable they are. ...:
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There are a thread about big production boats that circumnavigated. They are much more by a factor than luxury well built boats that circumnavigated.
That is in contradiction with what you say.
They are also in much more number than of luxury well built cruisers (by a factor too) so they should be losing, in proportion, much more kells, and that is not the case.
And they are as much in the marina (the majority) as the mass production boats.
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15-03-2018, 17:37
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#95
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 5,983
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Re: Keel Failure in the Canaries
Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux
There are a thread about big production boats that circumnavigated. They are much more by a factor than luxury well built boats that circumnavigated.
That is in contradiction with what you say.
They are also in much more number than of luxury well built cruisers (by a factor too) so they should be losing, in proportion, much more kells, and that is not the case.
And they are as much in the marina (the majority) as the mass production boats.
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I didn't say that only cheap boats were in a marina, I said "boats" and that includes all boats. I also agree that many cheap boats have made long passages but that in itself doesn't prove much because almost anything crosses oceans in the low latitudes, even row boats and god forbid cheap multihulls,lol. Its always interesting when serious cruisers decide to sail high latitudes that many if not most avoid the high production vessels of any stripe.
What I can't argue with is why the high production boat builders design and build the type of boats they do..They know their buyer very well and by and large many of the short comings in their product is of no concern to the buyers. Nobody knows the value and price point on their product better than the builder..their buyers are poundage buyers, they are not looking for higher quality and they are unwilling to pay for it. Its the biggest market out there and i understand why they do what they do.
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15-03-2018, 19:11
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#96
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 6,140
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Re: Keel Failure in the Canaries
Quote:
Originally Posted by robert sailor
I didn't say that only cheap boats were in a marina, I said "boats" and that includes all boats. I also agree that many cheap boats have made long passages but that in itself doesn't prove much because almost anything crosses oceans in the low latitudes, even row boats and god forbid cheap multihulls,lol. Its always interesting when serious cruisers decide to sail high latitudes that many if not most avoid the high production vessels of any stripe.
...:
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Well, certainly there are more adapted boats to sail on high latitudes but I do know of several production boats that sailed successfully on high, even very high latitude, Bavaria, Beneteau and even a First 40.7 LOL.
I remember that First 40.7 survived a big storm near Antarctica that sunk several other boats including one of those steel ones that are supposed to be the better ones to sail there.
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15-03-2018, 19:55
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#97
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 5,983
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Re: Keel Failure in the Canaries
Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux
Well, certainly there are more adapted boats to sail on high latitudes but I do know of several production boats that sailed successfully on high, even very high latitude, Bavaria, Beneteau and even a First 40.7 LOL.
I remember that First 40.7 survived a big storm near Antarctica that sunk several other boats including one of those steel ones that are supposed to be the better ones to sail there.
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Your doing a pretty good job on your blog by the way Polux, it's getting more interesting. Fairly robust keel mounting system on that X Yacht. Why do some builders continue to use stainless studs in their keel bolts? Stainless is very prone to crevice corrosion in situations like that..
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16-03-2018, 03:09
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#98
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Boat: Island Packet 40
Posts: 6,433
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Re: Keel Failure in the Canaries
Quote:
Originally Posted by robert sailor
Fortunately Perry designs keel attachments to factors far in excess of modern boats so nothing to worry about, you could probably lose half the bolts and still be ok.
Now I completely agree with you regarding stainless steel bolts in iron keels or lead for that matter because they are subject to crevice corrosion. Some of the British builders used mild steel for that very purpose. They also tapped the keel so you could withdraw a stud one at a time to inspect it, this can be done on land or in the water. There is no reason to drop a keel on their boats unless the seal at the keel hull has been compromised then you probably should. Even after 30 years almost all of the owners who have pulled studs have found them like new but the odd one was rusted because the seal at the keel had been broken. The use of stainless steel is a marketing game because unlike mild steel the stainless looks good and people like shinny things.
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There is no way I would use SS as keel bolts, the stuff is notoriously unreliable. SS nuts on carbon steel studs I would use.
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16-03-2018, 03:16
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#99
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Hobart
Boat: Alloy Peterson 40
Posts: 3,919
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Re: Keel Failure in the Canaries
Quote:
Originally Posted by RaymondR
There is no way I would use SS as keel bolts, the stuff is notoriously unreliable. SS nuts on carbon steel studs I would use.
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Duplex stainless is pretty good, 316 is crap in comparision.
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16-03-2018, 03:30
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#100
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 6,140
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Re: Keel Failure in the Canaries
Quote:
Originally Posted by robert sailor
Your doing a pretty good job on your blog by the way Polux, it's getting more interesting. Fairly robust keel mounting system on that X Yacht. Why do some builders continue to use stainless studs in their keel bolts? Stainless is very prone to crevice corrosion in situations like that..
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As Snowpetrel as pointed out there are many types of stainless steel and you can bet that if they are using it is because it is the best material. Galvanized steel has also its corrosion problems. Not a money problem here
Old deep wet bilges are a lot worse in what regards conditions for that to happen then modern hull bodies that have dry bridges.
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16-03-2018, 05:55
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#101
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2011
Boat: Valiant 42
Posts: 6,008
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Re: Keel Failure in the Canaries
Does anyone know why titanium is not used for keel bolts?
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16-03-2018, 06:01
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#102
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Panschwitz, Germany
Boat: Woods Mira 35 Catamaran
Posts: 4,235
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Re: Keel Failure in the Canaries
While it is very immun against pitting and stress induced corrosion it can be susceptible to crevice corrosion.
The later us the typical corrosion on keel bolts.
Guess that's the answer Dan.
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16-03-2018, 07:10
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#103
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Penobscot Bay, Maine
Boat: Tayana 47
Posts: 2,123
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Re: Keel Failure in the Canaries
I used to hear of monel being used for keel bolts but haven't seen any mention of it lately. It's pricey, but considering the small amount needed for 6-12 keel bolts, would seem to be worth it. Does anyone know of any manufacturers currently using monel or is there a reason why it's fallen out of favor?
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16-03-2018, 07:49
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#104
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Bumping around the Caribbean
Boat: Valiant 40
Posts: 4,625
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Re: Keel Failure in the Canaries
Quote:
Originally Posted by arsenelupiga
cheap strategy, attack if you not know facts
I do not know much about monohulls...
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Lord.
It was already clear that you did not know much about monohulls from your previous post. Thanks for confirming that.
Keels don’t fail because of stresses on the mast, even on boats where the mast is stepped onto the keel bolt backing plate. For example 300+ Valiants out there dating back to 1970s a huge number of which have circumnavigated and not a single keel failure.
The problem is not related to masts. It’s related to build quality, maintenance, and perhaps design flaws around rigidity re materials and layup.
__________________
"Having a yacht is reason for being more cheerful than most." -Kurt Vonnegut
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16-03-2018, 16:08
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#105
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 5,983
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Re: Keel Failure in the Canaries
Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux
As Snowpetrel as pointed out there are many types of stainless steel and you can bet that if they are using it is because it is the best material. Galvanized steel has also its corrosion problems. Not a money problem here
Old deep wet bilges are a lot worse in what regards conditions for that to happen then modern hull bodies that have dry bridges.
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Ha ha surely your kidding me Polux..they are using the finest stainless steel because it's the best material....from the same gang that uses brass in their thru hulls rather than bronze? Using fender washers under cleats rather than backing plates...my man please these builders don't spend a dime they don't have to and you can be very sure they are not using the best material for any of their construction. Truth is I don't have a problem with it either, any real well informed buyer will know they are buying low price not high quality and nothing wrong with that.
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