Keel discussion

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by newhaul

Tripp was the designer of the mark II but iirc Robert G. Henry, Jr was the designer of the origionals like ours. Tripp just changed the coach roof design to be more in line with the larger columbias.

Oh really? I didn't know that! And he worked for S&S in 1959 1960? How did you find that info?

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Don C L

Oh really? I didn't know that! And he worked for S&S in 1959 1960? How did you find that info?

S&s wasn't the only place Tripp ever worked . He apparently worked for columbia for a period as well.

Columbia Sailboat Model Specifications
I'm also assuming some of his designs were built after he was no longer employed at the various companies.

Here is the info about a new design of 29 columbia

Columbia 29 Specifications

[Jeff H]

Originally Posted by Don C L

Ah, thanks! So for me at least, the mystery remains as to who actually designed the Columbia 29.
And for the Columbia 50, another Tripp design, do you know how Columbia handled the keel and ballast in the Columbia 50? And for that matter in the Pearson Invicta, though it had the centerboard. I am wondering how those encapsulated keels were handled and if there were any that were built with the grounding, and what would happen to the ballast, in mind. Looks like the Columbia 50 will possibly suffer damage to engine as well as water tank.

I am sorry that I can't help you with who in the S&S organization actually was lead on the Columbia 29. That does not look like the work of Tripp, or Shaw. At that point in time, Shaw was heavily involved in the development and promotion of the MORC rule. His designs from that era looked like the New Horizons 26, Dolphin, and Seafarer 23.

I am pretty sure that the Invicta had a bolt on keel. Most keel centerboarders of that time were built that way. I don't recall how the Columbia 50 was built.

But I respectfully suggest that the Galaxy was an extremely different design concept than the Columbia 50. (Deck house aside) The Columbia 50 was a very typical CCA rule beater in terms of rig and hull proportions. When I look at the lines of the Columbia 50, it looks like it could have been originally drawn with a keel that in those days we would have normally called a fin keel with an attached rudder. (I know the term 'fin keel' is no longer applied to keels with attached rudders) But as built the plan form of the keel remained the same as it would have been with a keel hung rudder, but the rudder was removed and became a post hung rudder instead.

To illustrate the difference in design concept here are some pictures of two Galaxy 32's
Galaxy 32_0064 ,

'Galaxy 4' ,
'Galaxy 2' ,

The differences in design concept starts with the hull form. The hull cross sections were elliptical which does several things. It increases initial stability and more significantly, provided progressive damping during roll, slowing the roll rate and angle, as well as avoiding the snap at the end of the roll that was typical of slack bilge boats as their topsides rapidly enter the water. (Its the flip side of the sense that the boat hardens up at a specific heel angle. When the boat rolls to that angle, there is a jerk as stability jumps up.)

The Galaxy had a long water line for a boat from that era and had a fine bow. They also had powerful stern sections that prevented squatting and damped pitching. In combination these attributes meant that the boat had a more comfortable pitching motion and handled a chop much better than boats of that era and perhaps a decade or two beyond.

Where as the Columbia 50 had a conventional cut away keel, the Galaxy had a bulb keel with an early wing foil section and comparatively vertical leading edge. I will say that the rudder on the Columbia 50 was much more sophisticated that the skeg hung rudder on the Galaxy, but the Galaxy was designed 7-8 years before the Columbia 50.

Anyway, that's my thoughts for now.

Jeff

[Don C L]

Yes, I can see there is a very different concept at work between the Columbia 50 and the Galaxy. Was the Galaxy the first fin keel? I am assuming that is a cast iron keel. Was that designed with CCA rules at play? Except for the more powerful stern sections, I see a Ranger 26. Yep, way before its time!

[wingssail]

I posted earlier while other comments were coming infast and furiously, and I missed most of them.

What a delight to catch up with it now. Fantastic reading, best discussion about fiberglass boat construction and keel design that I've read in a long time.

Probably ever.

Thanks Jeff H and the others.

[Jeff H]

Originally Posted by Don C L

Yes, I can see there is a very different concept at work between the Columbia 50 and the Galaxy. Was the Galaxy the first fin keel? I am assuming that is a cast iron keel. Was that designed with CCA rules at play? Except for the more powerful stern sections, I see a Ranger 26. Yep, way before its time!

Fin keels go back to the 19th century. Nat Herreshoff's 'Dilemma' was generally thought to be the first fin keel/ bulb keel with separated rudder. But fin keels go back before that, only they typically had the rudder attached to the keel.

The racing rating rules of the day outlawed the fin with bulb keel after Dilemma trounced the finest that New York Yacht Club had to offer. But it remained popular on one design classes such as the Star from the early 20th Century. Lapworth was doing bulb keels on some wooden boats in the 40's and later on the Cal 20.

The Galaxy was raced under the CCA rule and were wildly successful. These were surprisingly fast boats. As a point of reference, these days a Galaxy typically rates around 174-180 as compared to a Vanguard at 222 or the 3 foot longer Hinckley Pilot at 195 to 201. I do believe that the keel on the Galaxy was lead.

Jeff

[Jeff H]

Originally Posted by newhaul

Tripp was the designer of the mark II but iirc Robert G. Henry, Jr was the designer of the originals like ours. Tripp just changed the coach roof design to be more in line with the larger columbias.

You may be right about Robert G. Henry, but that would be an little surprising, Robert G. Henry's work tended to be very fine ended and the Columbia 29 has very full bow sections. I would sooner guessed that was the work of Fenwick Williams, except I would have thought that he had left S&S by that time.

Jeff

[Jeff H]

Originally Posted by wingssail

I posted earlier while other comments were coming infast and furiously, and I missed most of them.

What a delight to catch up with it now. Fantastic reading, best discussion about fiberglass boat construction and keel design that I've read in a long time.

Probably ever.

Thanks Jeff H and the others.

You are very welcome.

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by Jeff H

Fin keels go back to the 19th century. Nat Herreshoff's 'Dilemma' was generally thought to be the first fin keel/ bulb keel with separated rudder. But fin keels go back before that, only they typically had the rudder attached to the keel.

The racing rating rules of the day outlawed the fin with bulb keel after Dilemma trounced the finest that New York Yacht Club had to offer. But it remained popular on one design classes such as the Star from the early 20th Century. Lapworth was doing bulb keels on some wooden boats in the 40's and later on the Cal 20.

The Galaxy was raced under the CCA rule and were wildly successful. These were surprisingly fast boats. As a point of reference, these days a Galaxy typically rates around 174-180 as compared to a Vanguard at 222 or the 3 foot longer Hinckley Pilot at 195 to 201. I do believe that the keel on the Galaxy was lead.

Jeff

Oh yeah, I meant the first fiberglass boat with a bolted on fin keel.
So I wonder why, if the Galaxy was so successful under the CCA rule, there weren't more designs like that earlier?

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by Jeff H

You may be right about Robert G. Henry, but that would be an little surprising, Robert G. Henry's work tended to be very fine ended and the Columbia 29 has very full bow sections. I would sooner guessed that was the work of Fenwick Williams, except I would have thought that he had left S&S by that time.

Jeff

I wonder if it was that the request to S&S was for a design similar to the Bear Class boat and that determined that the bow sections would be more full. Actually to my eye the bow of the Columbia 29 has a finer entry than the Bear class and of course they did cut away the forefoot on the keel as well.

But I had not seen this before:
https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/oxford-400

Looks like Henry dusted off this design from 1946 and turned it into the Columbia 29?

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Don C L

I wonder if it was that the request to S&S was for a design similar to the Bear Class boat and that determined that the bow sections would be more full. Actually to my eye the bow of the Columbia 29 has a finer entry than the Bear class and of course they did cut away the forefoot on the keel as well.

And I had not seen this before:
https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/oxford-400

Looks like Henry dusted off this design from 1946 and turned it into the Columbia 29?

Sure looks like it good catch

[Don C L]

And again thanks Jeff! I had never seen Dilemma before. Talk about a boat ahead of its time! Balanced spade rudder to boot!

[Jeff H]

Originally Posted by Don C L

Oh yeah, I meant the first fiberglass boat with a bolted on fin keel.
So I wonder why, if the Galaxy was so successful under the CCA rule, there weren't more designs like that earlier?

I think that the fact that the Galaxy and it's design concepts didn't catch on is in large part the result of when it was designed. I suggest that you need to visualize the sailing environment back in the 1950's when the Galaxy was designed.

I will call this the Firebird-Jimmi Hendrix syndrome. When the ballet the Firebird was premiered, it was seen as so radical that there was literally rioting in the streets in protest. Today it seems pretty tame and normal. Similarly, If you are old enough to remember the first time you heard a Jimmi Hendrix guitar riff on the AM radio, speaking for myself, I thought, what the heck is that? It sounded totally alien and incomprehensible. But if you hear a wild guitar riff 50 years later it sounds like normal hard rock and roll.
So in 1957, normal sailors were not sold on fiberglass. Standard sails were cotton and Dacron sails were a high priced option. And here comes this freakish boat with a strange deck plan and an alien underbody. Given that this was a design from an unknown designer, in a conservative environment, and that most sailors had never seen anything like the Galaxy, it is completely understandable that you they sold in small numbers. And given that the Galaxy was a financial flop, you can visualize why no one was in a rush to build similar designs.

But 7-8 years later, after the success fin keel-spade rudder Cal 40's out west, and the break through 12 Meter Intrepid, all of a sudden fin keel spade rudders seemed more mainstream. But even so, back then mainstream common wisdom was that the Cal 40 was too lightly built for offshore work, and even in this thread there are folks who think fin keels are too risky.

Regarding the Oxford 400. I know those boats pretty well. They are very neat designs. I am a little surprised how similar the hull profile is between the Oxford 400 and the Columbia 29 so I readily conceed that very well could be a Robert Henry design.

Jeff

[Jeff H]

And while I am busy correcting myself, it was not the Firebird that caused the riots in Paris. It was 'The Rites of Spring' premiere. Post in haste repent at leisure.

Jeff

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by Jeff H

I think that the fact that the Galaxy and it's design concepts didn't catch on is in large part the result of when it was designed. I suggest that you need to visualize the sailing environment back in the 1950's when the Galaxy was designed.

Jeff

Yeah but you'd think that winning races, as the Cal 40 did, in some very blue water, would convince folks. But then when I look at Dilemma, that must have looked like something from another planet or done as a joke. But if it blew away all the other boats, you'd THINK someone would have said "rules be damned, I want the fastest boat out there!"

I am sure learning a lot today!