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Old 10-08-2017, 10:28   #76
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Re: just wondering about liability release

Hey, arch, do you ever invite folks over for dinner? Or a barbeque? Or a birthday party? Kids got a play date?

And you have those folks sign a liability release before they are allowed to walk onto your property then too, right?

What happens if they get a paper cut while taking that release, and in the movement to grab the hurt hand, impale themselves on the freshly sharpened pencil you foolishly gave them to sign the forms with? (Crayons are safer.)

What happens if you all get in one car to go out to dinner, and there's an accident? Right, someone can sue anyway.

Car, boat, home, all same. Fault doesn't matter. Friends doesn't matter.
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Old 10-08-2017, 11:05   #77
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Re: just wondering about liability release

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It was in response to your insurance paid. Even though it might not cost you directly, it costs everyone in premiums. The system is broken. The solution, I haven't a clue. I said the ineligibility was if your insurance had paid and you have an opinion on that. It is total drift sorry.
No, I just commented on insurance paying without policyholder knowing, but made it clear I hadn't been involved in that situation.

As you said, a total drift. But then the whole liability subject can only drift. No simple answers when dealing with dozens of countries, dozens of states, the legal system and hundreds of insurers.

Reality is we all have potential liability every day. The protections are not being negligent and carrying insurance. Most of us are fortunate enough to have never had a major claim against us. In taking people on your boat there are risks, but they're risks most of us are willing to assume. However, whether home or boat, if your friend slips on your just waxed floor or even just mopped and has serious injury, your insurer is going to have to pay. I'm not bothered by that either. Friend gets injured on my property, has $100k hospital bills, out of work for 9 months, has some permanent injury, perhaps even pain, I want them taken care of properly and will be furious if my insurer doesn't do so. That's what I carry it for.
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Old 10-08-2017, 11:08   #78
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Re: just wondering about liability release

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Friends doesn't matter.
Friends suffer legitimate injury and loss and have to collect from you or your insurer. Nothing unfriendly about it.

We have employees who love their jobs and we love them but if they get hurt on the job, it's our responsibility to pay.
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Old 10-08-2017, 11:44   #79
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Re: just wondering about liability release

I guess this is where different national standards come into play BandB. In Canada if you are injured the public healthcare system takes care of the bills. If you are forced to be off work there is often workplace extended leave, or there is the national Employment Insurance program. There are then provincially run disability programs if your injury is long-term or permanent.

It certainly does happen that individuals will sue others for damages over an injury in a home (or a boat? Never heard of this, but I assume it happens). But these are based on provable and clear negligence. It's not a common legal occurrence as far as I know. I assume that's due to the seemingly stronger public social supports.

Employers certainly bear a higher responsibility to ensure their workplaces are safe, and that workers are trained. There are mandated workplace insurance programs to take care of claims.
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Old 10-08-2017, 12:47   #80
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Re: just wondering about liability release

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I guess this is where different national standards come into play BandB. In Canada if you are injured the public healthcare system takes care of the bills. If you are forced to be off work there is often workplace extended leave, or there is the national Employment Insurance program. There are then provincially run disability programs if your injury is long-term or permanent.

It certainly does happen that individuals will sue others for damages over an injury in a home (or a boat? Never heard of this, but I assume it happens). But these are based on provable and clear negligence. It's not a common legal occurrence as far as I know. I assume that's due to the seemingly stronger public social supports.
Here it's more allocating injury to cause. For instance, you receive injuries in an auto accident caused by someone else. Your health insurance is going to collect from the other party's auto insurer.

Many do have voluntary disability policies. The government plan which covers disability under social security requires 90% disability, must be unable to work any job, and has a 5 to 6 month waiting period.

Most injuries don't involve court or major disputes. It's the major ones. Negligence is always difficult to define.
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Old 10-08-2017, 12:52   #81
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Re: just wondering about liability release

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I guess this is where different national standards come into play BandB. In Canada if you are injured the public healthcare system takes care of the bills. If you are forced to be off work there is often workplace extended leave, or there is the national Employment Insurance program. There are then provincially run disability programs if your injury is long-term or permanent.
The US is similar, but these programs will not keep you in the middle class if you can no longer work. 1 in 10 in the US now makes >100k. If you have 20-30 years of working left, that's millions of dollars necessary to make you whole.
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Old 10-08-2017, 13:15   #82
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Re: just wondering about liability release

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The US is similar, but these programs will not keep you in the middle class if you can no longer work. 1 in 10 in the US now makes >100k. If you have 20-30 years of working left, that's millions of dollars necessary to make you whole.
?????
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Old 10-08-2017, 13:38   #83
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Re: just wondering about liability release

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?????
Understand the risks. If you injure someone, or are injured by someone; there can be millions of dollars at stake. Don't imagine that money will just fall out of the sky because it's "right," or "fair."

1. Get liability releases when you can.
2. Don't sign liability releases if you don't have to.
3. Have plenty of liability insurance.
4. Consider disability insurance, unless you're satisifed with what the government will give you (not much).
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Old 10-08-2017, 14:00   #84
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Re: just wondering about liability release

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Understand the risks. If you injure someone, or are injured by someone; there can be millions of dollars at stake. Don't imagine that money will just fall out of the sky because it's "right," or "fair."

1. Get liability releases when you can.
2. Don't sign liability releases if you don't have to.
3. Have plenty of liability insurance.
4. Consider disability insurance, unless you're satisifed with what the government will give you (not much).
I've lost track of OP. Seems like a bunch of drift.
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Old 10-08-2017, 14:04   #85
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Re: just wondering about liability release

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I've lost track of OP. Seems like a bunch of drift.
No, no, see my first two points. I brought it all back on topic and wrapped it up nicely.
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Old 10-08-2017, 18:47   #86
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Re: just wondering about liability release

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The US is similar, but these programs will not keep you in the middle class if you can no longer work. 1 in 10 in the US now makes >100k. If you have 20-30 years of working left, that's millions of dollars necessary to make you whole.

The income programs are not rich in Canada either, but at least we incur no healthcare costs. I'm not sure what the 100K numbers are in Canada, but I'd bet there's more that 1 in 10 that cross that income threshold.
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Old 10-08-2017, 19:41   #87
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Re: just wondering about liability release

In running an outdoor recreation program, I do a bit of work involving risk management, but I am not a lawyer or risk management expert so do not take the following as legal or expert advice, they are simply my thoughts:

1. The U.S. is a litigious society. There is no such thing as having no liability risk. The deeper your pockets, the more risk you face.

2. The duty you owe people to protect them from harm varies depending on the relationship you have with them. Typically you have a greater responsibility to protect people you take out for hire than friends you take out for fun, but an important point is you do have some duty to protect people from harm even if you don't charge them and they are just friends.

3: "waivers" are typically a "waiver" of rights and an assumption of risk. For people to assume risks, they must be informed of risks. I never say things like: "Nothing will go wrong or I guarantee your safety". Better in my opinion to accurately inform people of the risks involved in sailing and document this when possible. For example, mention these things in an email.

4. Suing someone is typically about someone seeking compensation for a loss. If there is no loss, there is nothing to be compensated for. For that reason, in my opinion one of the best and most ethical risk management strategies is to prevent people from suffering a harm or loss. One thing I stress to my leaders is that following rules and protocols, while very important is only scratching the surface when it comes to protecting people from harm. One should know the conditions, know their equipment, and know the limitations of people under their care. Most importantly, this all means nothing if you don't act on it. I've read that in half of all outdoor accidents, the leader saw the potential risk but didn't take action to prevent it. All the knowledge in the world means nothing if you don't act upon it.

4. A way to have a waiver and assumption of risk of sorts without it coming across a way too legalistic is to have a crew agreement. This can cover not only risks, but standards and expectations that apply on your boat. This can easily be presented in a non confrontational manner. I imagine legal experts would cringe at combining various ideas into one document, but still it's better than nothing.


Again, these are my thoughts and some insights in how I do things, but they are not advice. For legal advice, consult a lawyer versed in this area.
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Old 11-08-2017, 08:16   #88
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Re: just wondering about liability release

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Those scumbag lawyers:

McDonalds' Hot Coffee Case - Read the Facts NOT the Fiction

Provided by the Center for Justice & Democracy, New York City

The “McDonald’s coffee” case. We have all heard it: a woman spills McDonald's coffee, sues and gets $3 million. Here are the facts of this widely misreported and misunderstood case:
Already well aware of the particulars. It's a common approach. McD's is a big company so they hand out big payouts to get back at the big evil company not because there was a good justification for the payout. If it was a small mom & pop place doing the exact same thing, they likely wouldn't have gotten anything.

Stick a hot cup of coffee between your legs in a moving car and you took the risk knowing the likely outcome. If you don't want hot coffee order an ice coffee. Nothing worse than luke warm coffee.

PS: Anyone remember the old apple pies. Loved those but you had to be careful because surprise surprise, they were hot. Now you can't get them anymore because fools sue over something to be expected.
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Old 11-08-2017, 08:26   #89
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Re: just wondering about liability release

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I guess this is where different national standards come into play BandB. In Canada if you are injured the public healthcare system takes care of the bills. If you are forced to be off work there is often workplace extended leave, or there is the national Employment Insurance program. There are then provincially run disability programs if your injury is long-term or permanent.

It certainly does happen that individuals will sue others for damages over an injury in a home (or a boat? Never heard of this, but I assume it happens). But these are based on provable and clear negligence. It's not a common legal occurrence as far as I know. I assume that's due to the seemingly stronger public social supports.

Employers certainly bear a higher responsibility to ensure their workplaces are safe, and that workers are trained. There are mandated workplace insurance programs to take care of claims.
The big public cases rarely would be solved by who pays the health insurance costs. It's usually the punitive fines that get the news reports of multimillion dollar payouts. I suspect it's the same in Canada but with a much smaller population and a preponderance of US news, you just don't hear about as many cases, so it seems better.

The vast majority of cases are sorted out between insurance companies. In fact, if a someone runs you over with an uninsured car (completely illegal to be driving in most states), odds are you insurance won't bother with a case because there is no money to get from your average uninsured driver.
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Old 11-08-2017, 08:30   #90
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Re: just wondering about liability release

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3: "waivers" are typically a "waiver" of rights and an assumption of risk. For people to assume risks, they must be informed of risks. I never say things like: "Nothing will go wrong or I guarantee your safety". Better in my opinion to accurately inform people of the risks involved in sailing and document this when possible. For example, mention these things in an email.
Reminds me back in college a few buddies went sky diving. They held a 4hr class before you could go.
- 3hr was going over and signing off on the ways you are likely to die or at least be severely injured.
- 1hr was actually spent on how to actually do it.
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