Is it still a Buyer's Market?

[sailpower]

Buyers are buying. Dreamers and wannabes are not.

Sellers are selling. Dreamers aren’t.

In the used boat market there were some really great buys of nice boats 2009-2011. Those boats are now sold.

There are still some good buys but not as many as there were. Does that make the market up, down or does it matter?

There will always be cheap buys on not so nice boats. There will always be sellers who don’t do what it takes to sell.

Brokers will always lie to you. Owners selling direct never will.

[ArtM]

You guys are being silly. It doesn't matter if boats are up or down because they are depreciating assets. Even perfectly maintained, they go down in value over time. What does it matter if they are more or less valuable than they would have been or might be at some other time? They are going to be worth less tomorrow than they are today, except for the effect of inflation.

Boats are not sufficiently uniform, frequently sold, or evenly distributed to be broken down and evaluated statistically in the way houses are.

Further, their absolute value is basically irrelevant - whether someone thinks boats are up or down depends on whether or not they are in the market, and if they are what their relative capability is to buy a boat. If I am better able to afford a boat today than I was yesterday, I will perceive that prices are down. At the same time, another person in another situation will perceive that they are up.

[nmit5903]

Yes for the right boats. Very limited market for larger older cruising vessels in my view. Prices are well down on even just 12 months ago.

Newer production boats - always seems to be a market.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by ArtM

You guys are being silly. It doesn't matter if boats are up or down because they are depreciating assets. Even perfectly maintained, they go down in value over time. What does it matter if they are more or less valuable than they would have been or might be at some other time? They are going to be worth less tomorrow than they are today, except for the effect of inflation.

I agree for the cheap mass produced boats, but not for the rest. Our boat has almost doubled in price now, while we paid 50% over new price 10 years ago.

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

I agree for the cheap mass produced boats, but not for the rest. Our boat has almost doubled in price now, while we paid 50% over new price 10 years ago.

The overall boat market is different than it was 10 years ago, though I can't really say much about your particular boat. Let's recap the world economy, shall we? Ten years ago was 2003. Are you really saying that the world economy doesn't affect the value of boats, even expensive ones? I recall seeing some pretty large yachts selling for a lot less than their billionaire owners paid, just like with their multimillion dollar homes. Not being "mass produced" didn't protect their value.

Owners are famous for overvaluing their own boats, but let's assume you're right and have accurately assessed your boat's value. Does that make it representative of the market as a whole? I'd say that custom made boats are a bit specialized in nature.

The boat market is similar to other luxury markets, and does have a relationship to the economic outlook.

[s/v Jedi]

Oh I agree, the billionaires toys are jst that, toys, and not worth anything they think it is. I'm talking about bigger sailboats equipped for serious cruising.

[Kettlewell]

Boat depreciation is strange. Buy a new boat today and it will depreciate rapidly for 10-20 years, but then it will stabilize and possibly increase in value. If you buy a 30-year old boat today in good shape, keep it up, and make various upgrades I doubt you would lose anything in another five years. It's the new boats where you really take the big depreciation hits.

I have never seen reliable numbers on listed price vs. selling price. I think yacht brokers bandy about various numbers they get from YachtWorld and such, but what they say publicly is about as reliable as what you always get from realtors: "It's never been a better time to buy." or "It's a great time to sell!"

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Kettlewell

Boat depreciation is strange. Buy a new boat today and it will depreciate rapidly for 10-20 years, but then it will stabilize and possibly increase in value. If you buy a 30-year old boat today in good shape, keep it up, and make various upgrades I doubt you would lose anything in another five years. It's the new boats where you really take the big depreciation hits.

I have never seen reliable numbers on listed price vs. selling price. I think yacht brokers bandy about various numbers they get from YachtWorld and such, but what they say publicly is about as reliable as what you always get from realtors: "It's never been a better time to buy." or "It's a great time to sell!"

It's that plus that manufacturing of good cruising boats has become much more expensive. Most boats are built for charter; there are only so few for cruising. It is not really economical anymore to build boats for cruising. The owners versions are a joke. We have Amel and that's it I think.

When I saw the rebuild value on our survey report, I was in shock. They can't build and sell this anymore as there would be no buyers. This is why the value increases: it's almost double the new price but it is also only half the rebuild value and there is not much competition.

[leftbrainstuff]

After 6 months of looking for a cruising yacht in the US we've experienced the following:
- good boats, the well maintained few sell quickly and for a 10 - 15% discount max.
- many boats, particularly on the gulf coast and Florida, are either overpriced or junk. Too many owners who aren't sailors and don't understand any concept of preventative or planned maintenance in this part of the world. These boats are IMHO writeoffs but continue to litter the market.
- a third class of boat are those priced not to sell. Usually by husband who doesn't want to sell but wife has put her foot down.
Options 2 & 3 severely distort any attempt to make sense of pricing statistics. Like we've said to many sellers and brokers: We don't care about stats. We're here to buy and only one boat. With cash. It has to meet our criteria, not the sellers or bokers. It also has to be in a maintainable state and be cost effectively maintainable in the future.
We'll be back again later this year to buy. We'll be avoiding the brokers and concentrating on our yacht club connections.

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by leftbrainstuff

After 6 months of looking for a cruising yacht in the US we've experienced the following:
- good boats, the well maintained few sell quickly and for a 10 - 15% discount max.
- many boats, particularly on the gulf coast and Florida, are either overpriced or junk. Too many owners who aren't sailors and don't understand any concept of preventative or planned maintenance in this part of the world. These boats are IMHO writeoffs but continue to litter the market.
- a third class of boat are those priced not to sell. Usually by husband who doesn't want to sell but wife has put her foot down.
Options 2 & 3 severely distort any attempt to make sense of pricing statistics. Like we've said to many sellers and brokers: We don't care about stats. We're here to buy and only one boat. With cash. It has to meet our criteria, not the sellers or bokers. It also has to be in a maintainable state and be cost effectively maintainable in the future.
We'll be back again later this year to buy. We'll be avoiding the brokers and concentrating on our yacht club connections.

I think your comment is fairly accurate, but I don't know where your statistics on "good boats" and "10-15%" statistics comes from. Certainly, not all owners price their boat correctly.

Do you have access to accurate sales vs asking prices data?

I think it's likely true that perfectly maintained boats sell at a premium, but I don't know how you could accurately quantify that.

I sure wish the boat market were a bit more transparent, like the housing market is.

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by Kettlewell

Boat depreciation is strange. Buy a new boat today and it will depreciate rapidly for 10-20 years, but then it will stabilize and possibly increase in value. If you buy a 30-year old boat today in good shape, keep it up, and make various upgrades I doubt you would lose anything in another five years. It's the new boats where you really take the big depreciation hits.

I have never seen reliable numbers on listed price vs. selling price. I think yacht brokers bandy about various numbers they get from YachtWorld and such, but what they say publicly is about as reliable as what you always get from realtors: "It's never been a better time to buy." or "It's a great time to sell!"

Very accurate comment.

Yachtworld sometimes seems like dream-o-meter pricing.

[Cheechako]

[QUOTE=s/v Jedi;1210371]It's that plus that manufacturing of good cruising boats has become much more expensive. Most boats are built for charter; there are only so few for cruising. It is not really economical anymore to build boats for cruising. The owners versions are a joke. We have Amel and that's it I think.

I agree.... not easy to buy a new well built cruising boat anymore, they are very expensive. If you have an old well built boat and keep it nice, I dont see it depreciating. Needs to be not a tupperware production boat though....

[leftbrainstuff]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

I think your comment is fairly accurate, but I don't know where your statistics on "good boats" and "10-15%" statistics comes from. Certainly, not all owners price their boat correctly.

Do you have access to accurate sales vs asking prices data?

I think it's likely true that perfectly maintained boats sell at a premium, but I don't know how you could accurately quantify that.

I sure wish the boat market were a bit more transparent, like the housing market is.

We've looked at over 100 boats and the good ones, as determined by our criteria, that have all sold have been for a 10 - 15% delta to the advertised price. Our data set has been validated by us and is therefore far more trusted. Our analysis is statistically valid bas

[leftbrainstuff]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

I think your comment is fairly accurate, but I don't know where your statistics on "good boats" and "10-15%" statistics comes from. Certainly, not all owners price their boat correctly.

Do you have access to accurate sales vs asking prices data?

I think it's likely true that perfectly maintained boats sell at a premium, but I don't know how you could accurately quantify that.

I sure wish the boat market were a bit more transparent, like the housing market is.

We've looked at over 100 boats and the good ones, as determined by our criteria, that have all sold have been for a 10 - 15% delta to the advertised price. Without exception.

Our data set has been validated by us and is therefore far more trusted than the very messy and noisy data often touted as the industry norm. (It's biased by brokers reported sales prices that we've compared to actual sale prices) Our analysis is statistically valid based on our data set.

Really what we see is that the boats worth buying are worth paying good money for.

[Celestialsailor]

Just my opinion...Boats still are at an all time low. talking to a few brokers at the boat show this week, I was told that the prices are still low but boats are selling much quicker than before. This will translate into a thinner inventory at which time, supply and demand will again drive the prices in an upward trend. It stand to reason if the housing market is now recovering (mine is up 20% this last year) and unemployment is dropping, that the luxury items will follow suit right behind them.
If you were waiting to buy...this is probably the time to do it.