Intelligent Discussion on Ferro

[AussieGeoff]

Originally Posted by BillAU

Good on you Geoff, I called about that Hartley Queenslander, at the asking price, I thought it well worth a look but when I rang, I was told "it's sold" so you beat me to it mate Oh well, like I say, never run after a bus, a woman or a boat, there's always another one coming behind

The broker mentioned there were four others interested if I changed my mind. He had another ferro, a 32' Centre cockpit sloop we liked as well (and it was cheaper), but I just missed out on that one, it was sold by the time I got to him. So I jumped on the Hartley as soon as it popped up. Aside from being neglected, it seems to be pretty good and basically quite sound. As you seem to have discovered, lack of paint and TLC doesn't bother a sound ferro hull much, if at all, it just looks tacky.

Originally Posted by BillAU

I'm sure you'll get a lot of pleasure from the Hartley Geoff

Thanks mate, I hope you find something you really like too.

Originally Posted by BillAU

As for that good looking glass sheathed Ketch Steve, I was told by another member, his mate inspected the boat two years ago but lost interest when he spotted declamation of the glass in some spots...And repairing, or stripping that could become exspensive.

I know, from personal experience, polyester/glass can declamation from ply hulls, big time, and as that FC Ketch was built back in 1975, chances are, her hull was coated with polyester, not epoxy

And as I know almost nothing about FC boats, I go with advice given by others, preferably people who have owned and/or worked on/with FC boats, people like: Capt. Alan Hugenot, a marine surveyor who states:
Quote:
Because well-made ferrocement is impermeable (waterproof), there should be no need for painting?. Quoted from UNDERSTANDING FERROCEMENT CONSTRUCTION, (?1988, ISBN: 0-86619-284-0)

Unfortunately, this popular mistaken belief (that water always penetrates clear through cement), creates an additional unfounded fear (which takes on the form of an urban legend along the waterfront), that the chloride (salt) dissolved in sea water will penetrate (soak) through a cement hull and attack any metals imbedded within the structure. But, this is also completely untrue.
End Quote.

Yes! I have seen this also. In another thread some well meaning type suggested this. I also commented in a previous post that much of the misinformation about ferro seems to have reached the same status as some of the urban legends that float about the internet. (Have a look at a site called www.snopes.com) I sometimes wonder if I should send them a screed on ferro boats! As the learned gentleman you mention states, properly cured concrete is about as water permeable as granite. Rust only occurs in the presence of water and oxygen. Cut off both and you don't get any. The only issues are damage to the plaster allowing air and water in (and even this tends to be localised - rust can't as some suggest, migrate along the armature deep into the hull. It stops when the water and oxygen can't get to the metal, so a layer of corrosion in itself will form a barrier) This process was actually used in early firearms, prior to the invention of the blueing process. It was called 'browning' and involved (as does blueing but with a different agent) a controlled corrosive process that formed a layer over the steel.
The only issue I am not yet clear on is electrolytic effects from use of power on board. I have also heard of effects from use of power by other boats, but I am uncertain of the physics of this. I have seen one anecdotal report of the armature being disintegrated by electrolysis, but I cannot understand how this can happen in the absence of an electrolyte, ie, if the armature were exposed at some point, yes, you could get electrolytic effects at the point of contact, but the dissolution should cease when the layer of broken down iron cuts the metal off from the water (the electrolyte), so I am not at all sure how it can permeate itself through the rest of the armature and I am even less sure how use of power on other boats can have an impact, though this seems to be a common belief.
I'm happy to string Zinc anodes, (presumably connected to the armature at some convenient point) but only if I'm sure it's a good idea.

Originally Posted by BillAU

Now, if things are not as reported by Capt Alan Huegnot, a marine surveyor, and the FC boat owner believes his FC boat needs a hull treatment other than paint, or pre-painting, then why not go for this Bio Vee Concrete treatment instead of glassing

Or, as a young couple in the UK have done, more that five years back, with no ongoing treatments, treat the hull of their FC Hartley South Seas with a clear garage floor sealant from B and Q. (Don't ask me who B&Q are cause I don't know, most likely a pommy builder supply store) before painting with:
Quote:
International Paint Primer. This thick grey layer created yet another barrier between us and the ocean- every little helps. We finished off with International Antifoul, which again worked fairly well and went on the concrete hull- something not every antifoul does!
End Quote.
Geoff, Here's a link to their helpful blog on working on their Hartley Queenslander Lots of helpful information and pictures too

Yes, I found that site myself. Excellent stuff. I note that they painted their hull with Dulux Weathershield too, after an expensive marine finish didn't stick! Actually a friend of mine is a painter and he suggested that Acryloc Roof Paint would probably be ideal for a concrete hull. He paints a lot of brick, stone and cement render so he'd know. I'd really like to find the garage floor sealer they used, sounds like a great idea and I think they are on the right track, the vast majority of 'marine' paint and seal systems are oriented to timber, glass or steel and not concrete. As the Brit couple found, some of it doesn't even stick well to concrete. This also applies to antifoulings unless there is a basecoat that bonds properly to the concrete, so I am looking at products used to treat/paint concrete structures rather than marine stuff. As you note, concrete doesn't deteriorate from exposure to seawater or most bridges and marinas would be in trouble, so painting is less about protecting the hull than with other material. Naturally if you DO protect it from the sea, you are unlikely to have other issues such as the electrolytic problem I am still looking into. If the water can't get to the armature, you can't get electrolysis.

Originally Posted by BillAU

I have no idea why anyone would go to the extra expense of glassing the hull of their FC boat, as, from what I have read on FC hull treatments, by those who know and have done it, glassing is "not" required...Unless you want to make your FC boat look like a glass boat. I have nothing against a glass boat, I have a glass Careel 22 but the lower maintenance on a FC, live on-board boat appeals to me, (I guess my belief in the KISS principle is even stronger now that I'm getting to be a weee bit long in the tooth)

I'm also unsure what the advantage is, if any. Frankly, it seems to just create another maintenance issue. Other than making it fair (and some ferro hulls are pretty fair anyway) you then introduce the issue of having water trapped inside in the event of damage, delamination/osmosis in the sheathing and all the other issues that go with it. Frankly I think sheathing of even wood boats (where it is a good idea - done properly!) is cause for concern, as it can trap water in the timber and induce dry rot. I have seen power boats where the transom was essentially a hollow shell of glass, filled with a powdered glug that used to be wood. Not a good thing to hang a few thousand bucks worth of outboard from. The best time to glass a timber hull is when it is made, before the timber gets wet.

Originally Posted by BillAU

And I've no worries about selling any boat after I've finished with it, the boat will be passed-on to one of my kids...Or the dog, whichever I feel strongest about

That is probably what we'll do with ours. My son is a leading contender already and he hasn't even set foot on it, but he likes the idea. We have grandkids too, so one of them might put in a bid as well. At the price I paid, I can afford to just pass it on when I'm done. I'm 55 so I think they might have to wait about twenty years or so though!

Originally Posted by BillAU

The glassed Ketch “is” a big bugger and if she's back in the water, I'm guessing it would be pretty difficult to spot any and/or all declamation of the glass on her hull But, I still like the look of that Ketch and won't scrub her from my watch list just yet. I would love to get-up to Darwin to look her over myself but, unfortunately, I just can't get away for a least another six or eight weeks.

I had similar issues. I had a medical problem that forced us to return home after we'd actually left to go inspect and fetch her and I may be stuck here until after Christmas (worst case). Naturally the seller wanted me to settle or let it go, so we have bought her on the advice of others.
I didn't shell out for a formal survey (the cost was a signficant portion of the purchase price) but I'm comfortable that the hull is sound and she is worth the money. Fortunately the mooring was available so I've paid for a full year in case we are delayed further. It's frustrating but we will use the time to plan the pre delivery refurbishments (I plan to add AIS and radar - if I can find a s/h radar) and the trip itself more thoroughly and study on the handling of ketches.

Originally Posted by BillAU

I'm also begining to think a 50'er would be to big for me and the dog so perhaps I should be looking more at 36' to 42' max' FC yachts

It's a lot of boat, but if it's set up right, it can be easier than a lot of smaller boats that aren't. A furler on the headsail is a must, or at least, highly desirable. The Hartley can be singlehanded with ease it seems.

Best of luck, I hope you find the boat you will love.

AussieGeoff

[BillAU]

Originally Posted by clockwork orange

Bill, i agree that if that boat was glassed using polyester resin it would be a problem but i would be very suprised if it were, if it were the US maybe but if it were built in Aus or NZ it is most likely epoxy, sheathing with poly was just not done at least in NZ since epoxy was common practice since the 50s, as i pointed out before, i can think of no situation where sealing with epoxy would not be improved with a layer of cloth even though it sure was not necessary.

I don't know Steve, I just can't see a good enough reason to glass over a proper, well built FC hull and, like Geoff, I think doing so could lead to unwanted problems years on but...Being no expert, I could well be wrong, then again, if glassing FC hulls is so good, I wonder why Hartley/Samson is not recommending it with their FC hulls

I would disagree with Mr Hugenot somewhat as if i remember right when you quoted him in an earlier post he was saying some ridiculous amount of cement cover over the armature to result in it being impervious, you simply dont have much cover over the armature and often there are ties quite close to the surface so you MUST have a good barrier coat at least below the waterline.

After reading Captain Hugenot's site again, I think he may have been refering to much larger FC boats, ocean going ships and such, but as I have already said, I'm no expert so I don't know

It suprises me that we are over 100 posts on this thread and i dont think that there is anyone other than myself posting that has actually built a Ferro boat and im not sure that folks actually realize that when a competent plastering crew plasters a nicely faired armature they dont need to apply excess plaster so are just skimming over the mesh, you then water cure it continuously for a couple of weeks during which time you scrub the hull down with emery stones while its wet and you invariably expose some ties which start to rust by the time the water is shut off, you then chip them out and forget about them until years later when everything is bone dry and you are ready for epoxy you then fill them with an epoxy product such as epicrete, which is why a nice fabric would be a good thing, that said i did not do this on my boat.
Steve.

Yes Steve, the thread had been dead since 04-02-2007, then I seem to have brought it back to life when I posted my query earlier this month.
As for the FC build method, in my own case, I simply don't have the time nor the inclination to start building a boat in FC, or any medium.
I too would like to see more members, experenced with FC boats, building, sailing and maintening them, join in and post their findings. I think Mr Alan Wheeler could give a lot of good advice on FC boats but I'm not sure if he's still a active member or not. Meanwhile, I for one am happy that the subject of FC yachts is alive and well again...I feel it would be a great loss if people completly loost interest in FC boats.

Bill

[BillAU]

Geoff, check-out this Bio Vee Concrete treatment

From what the manufacture says on their site, it's magic water proofing on concrete and it's low priced. They describe it as: BIO-Vee Concrete Sealer, Waterproofer and Fortifier, Coating Pre-treatment. They also say: NON-HAZMAT - AVAILABLE FOR WORLDWIDE SHIPPING
They have an order link on the site but they may also sell Bio Vee Concrete treatment through an agent here in Australia, or you may be able to import what you need.

Bill

[AussieGeoff]

Had a look at the BioVee. I reckon that might be just about ideal. Then paint over it with pretty much anything. Thanks for that Bill, I'll see about getting some.

AussieGeoff

[clockwork orange]

Bill, i think you may be missunderstanding me, i most deffinatly am not suggesting that sheathing Ferro is something that should be done, only that it is not something i would fear IF it were done properly with epoxy to a hull that is dry, as in having dried out after several years of fitout, a boat of any material needs some kind of paint system and if it starts with epoxy resin as a sealer as most do then glass or dynel applied in the resin will not induce delamination any more than the resin alone, it just doesnt happen. What a skin of, especially dynel will do that resin alone may not is protect from minor impact damage to the sealer coat and this is the main reason for it on plywood and cold molded hulls, by minor impact i mean like when you graze a half submerged log or something that scrapes through the paint system. As i said, not necesarry but still better than resin alone.
I dont know if any of you guys look on Trademe.com but when i looked the other day there were 13 ferro boats for sale so if you dont mind a Tasman crossing it may be worth a look. I agree that we need to keep the thread alive, i have not had anything to do with ferro for 35yrs and having either built or repaired boats of all the popular materials for a living i still feel that ferro gets an unfair rap and can be as good as any.
Steve.

[BillAU]

Originally Posted by AussieGeoff

Had a look at the BioVee. I reckon that might be just about ideal. Then paint over it with pretty much anything. Thanks for that Bill, I'll see about getting some.

AussieGeoff

G'day Geoff,

Glad to have been of help mate
Bill

[BillAU]

Originally Posted by clockwork orange

Bill, i think you may be missunderstanding me, i most deffinatly am not suggesting that sheathing Ferro is something that should be done, only that it is not something i would fear IF it were done properly with epoxy to a hull that is dry, as in having dried out after several years of fitout, a boat of any material needs some kind of paint system and if it starts with epoxy resin as a sealer as most do then glass or dynel applied in the resin will not induce delamination any more than the resin alone, it just doesnt happen. What a skin of, especially dynel will do that resin alone may not is protect from minor impact damage to the sealer coat and this is the main reason for it on plywood and cold molded hulls, by minor impact i mean like when you graze a half submerged log or something that scrapes through the paint system. As i said, not necesarry but still better than resin alone.

G'day Steve,

I do understand what you're saying Steve mate, and I'm not saying you're wrong, as I have said, I'm no expert it's just that the Ketch in Darwin is the first FC yacht I have ever heard about that has had her hull glassed, then another member tells me, the glass was de-laminating in places, that Ketch looks great from her pictures but "I" don't believe the added expense is worth it and, if the hull were ever damaged, a glassed-over hull would need more time, work and expense to clean-up and repair than a FC hull that had been well built/faired, then pretreated with something like that Bio-Vee from the States, or that B&Q the young couple in England used, before painting and anti-fouling. Nor do I know how to go about fixing a problem of glass de-lamination from cement...Apart from cutting-out the de-laminated sections with a grinding wheel, then making sure everything was bone-dry before repairing any damage to the FC hull (caused by the cutting wheel) then re-glassing the cut-out section of glass. That to "my" way of thinking is just not worth the effort Steve but...I could well be wrong.

Originally Posted by clockwork orange

I dont know if any of you guys look on Trademe.com but when i looked the other day there were 13 ferro boats for sale so if you dont mind a Tasman crossing it may be worth a look.

I don't mind a Tasman crossing in a decent boat Steve...Not the best place to be caught-out in a boat that is a fixer-upper but then...At sea, where is I spent just on an hour on that Trademe.com site Steve and from what I seen, it's nothing more than a simple "link farm". I could not find a single boat of any description listed on the site never mind a FC boat listed. The most useful "link" to FC boats I could find on Trademe.com, was to ferrocement.org
Ferrocement.Org is a good site, lots of FC boats for sale, world wide, and lots of good information too. I believe Hartley/Samson run Ferrocement.Org. Someone somewhere on the fourm talked about combining epoxy/grp with cement for building a FC boat, after reading about mixes on Ferrocement.com/combi, it seems this is a big no-no, if interested you can check it out at Ferrocement.com/combi

Originally Posted by clockwork orange

I agree that we need to keep the thread alive, i have not had anything to do with ferro for 35yrs and having either built or repaired boats of all the popular materials for a living i still feel that ferro gets an unfair rap and can be as good as any.
Steve.

I have only worked on sea going ships and boats, (engineering on ships, skippering on inshore fishing boat) You're one up on me Steve, I've never had anything to do with FC boats, I've only ever built one yacht and that was 25yrs back, (just where has all that time gone) she was a 40' ply/glass Polynesian Cat, a Captain Cook by James Wharram. I never did finish that Cat, was made a good offer for her, unfinished, so I sold her. I guess that experience of building a ply/glass boat is the reason I still like the thought of owning a Jim Brown 40' Trimaran, built using glassed over ply, for ease of repairs but, right or wrong, I believe a well built FC boat would be a lot less maintenance/expense for me and at my age...68yrs, I believe FC could well be the way to go but once again...I may well be wrong Cheers Steve.


Bill

[BillAU]

Perhaps someone who knows for sure can answer these questions on rigging.
First: How long will SS rigging last on a sailing yacht compared to galvanised steel rigging

Second: Is it true that galvanised steel rigging is better/safer than SS rigging because when galvanised steel rigging is on the way out, it lets you know by signs of rust or shredding individual outer strands of wire, whereas with SS rigging, you get no warnings at all, it simply snaps without warning

Last rigging question: Do you know anything about Synthetic Standing Rigging, such as this: Colligo Dux Synthetic Standing Rigging, have you used it and if so, what's your opinion on it

Bill

[IslandHopper]

Hi Bill,

Here are some Kiwi ones that you may or may not know about, including one glassed over....

http://www.tradeaboat.co.nz/View/Used/HARTLEY-TAHITIAN-1996/14355.aspx?N=4294967028+187+210+0&No=60&Nf=P_Price %7cBTWN+30000+200000%7c
http://www.tradeaboat.co.nz/View/Used/HARTLEY-FIJIAN-1979/19885.aspx?N=4294967028+187+210+0&No=60&Nf=P_Price %7cBTWN+30000+200000%7c
http://www.tradeaboat.co.nz/View/Used/HARTLEY-SOUTH-SEAS-1980/7998.aspx?N=4294967028+187+210+0&No=60&Nf=P_Price% 7cBTWN+30000+200000%7c
http://www.tradeaboat.co.nz/View/Used/HARTLEY-SOUTH-SEAS-1982/14551.aspx?N=4294967028+187+210+0&No=30&Nf=P_Price %7cBTWN+30000+200000%7c
http://www.tradeaboat.co.nz/View/Used/HARTLEY-TAHITIAN-1993/23424.aspx?N=4294967028+187+210+0&No=30&Nf=P_Price %7cBTWN+30000+200000%7c
http://www.tradeaboat.co.nz/View/Used/HARTLEY-TAHITIAN-45-2000/22660.aspx?N=4294967028+187+210+0&No=30&Nf=P_Price %7cBTWN+30000+200000%7c
http://www.tradeaboat.co.nz/View/Used/HARTLEY-42-1983/16076.aspx?N=4294967028+187+210+0&No=0&Nf=P_Price% 7cBTWN+30000+200000%7c
http://www.tradeaboat.co.nz/View/Used/HARTLEY-TAHITIAN-1989/18154.aspx?N=4294967028+187+210+0&No=0&Nf=P_Price% 7cBTWN+30000+200000%7c


Remember it's Kiwi dollars, so when you do the conversion they are a pretty good option... XE - Universal Currency Converter

[clockwork orange]

Bill, i dont understand what you are saying about trademe.com, its an auction site just like Ebay here in the US except it has many times more boats than Ebay, when i looked there were 13 Ferro boats with good descriptions and lots of pictures. I think you were on something else, we currently have 4 pages of sailboats on Ebay here, Trademe has 17 pages of just larger boats and then seperate areas for small boats and trailer sailers.
Steve.

[clockwork orange]

Ok Bill, i was wrong, i just went on Trademe and there are 35 Ferro sailboats listed, not 13. over 1000 sailboats total.
Steve.

[AussieGeoff]

Can you post the URL? I get similar results to Bill.

Aussie Geoff

[IslandHopper]

Try.....

Yachts & sail boats | Boats & marine | Trade Me

TradeMe.co.nz - ferro for sale, New Zealand

[clockwork orange]

Thats it, enter Ferro up top and you come up with 35 of them.
Steve.

[BillAU]

Originally Posted by IslandHopper

Hi Bill,

Here are some Kiwi ones that you may or may not know about, including one glassed over....

http://www.tradeaboat.co.nz/View/Used/HARTLEY-TAHITIAN-1996/14355.aspx?N=4294967028+187+210+0&No=60&Nf=P_Price %7cBTWN+30000+200000%7c
http://www.tradeaboat.co.nz/View/Used/HARTLEY-FIJIAN-1979/19885.aspx?N=4294967028+187+210+0&No=60&Nf=P_Price %7cBTWN+30000+200000%7c
http://www.tradeaboat.co.nz/View/Used/HARTLEY-SOUTH-SEAS-1980/7998.aspx?N=4294967028+187+210+0&No=60&Nf=P_Price% 7cBTWN+30000+200000%7c
http://www.tradeaboat.co.nz/View/Used/HARTLEY-SOUTH-SEAS-1982/14551.aspx?N=4294967028+187+210+0&No=30&Nf=P_Price %7cBTWN+30000+200000%7c
http://www.tradeaboat.co.nz/View/Used/HARTLEY-TAHITIAN-1993/23424.aspx?N=4294967028+187+210+0&No=30&Nf=P_Price %7cBTWN+30000+200000%7c
http://www.tradeaboat.co.nz/View/Used/HARTLEY-TAHITIAN-45-2000/22660.aspx?N=4294967028+187+210+0&No=30&Nf=P_Price %7cBTWN+30000+200000%7c
http://www.tradeaboat.co.nz/View/Used/HARTLEY-42-1983/16076.aspx?N=4294967028+187+210+0&No=0&Nf=P_Price% 7cBTWN+30000+200000%7c
http://www.tradeaboat.co.nz/View/Used/HARTLEY-TAHITIAN-1989/18154.aspx?N=4294967028+187+210+0&No=0&Nf=P_Price% 7cBTWN+30000+200000%7c


Remember it's Kiwi dollars, so when you do the conversion they are a pretty good option... XE - Universal Currency Converter

Evening IH,

Thanks for those links, it's good to compare asking prices, wherever the boats are. There are a few competive priced FC yachts right here in Australia but I can not make a move on any of them just yet, I hope and believe things will have cleared-up and I'll be ready to make my move by December/January...Till then, I'm just window shopping and checkig asking prices.

Bill