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Old 25-12-2018, 10:27   #136
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Re: Insurance, what can you afford to lose?

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Many cruisers seems to be able to live with a liability coverage in US waters. Where to get liability only coverage only?. Curious to see who provide such coverage. Many thanks.
We have had no problem getting liability coverage anywhere in the world where we wanted it. If there are boats there will be insurance brokers who know where to obtain coverage for you.

In our case we chose not to carry hull insurance due to the cost, $3000-$4000 per year, plus surveys and cruising limitation. I guess you could say we bet that we would not lose the boat, and in 32 years we have not. And we saved $100,000, wining the bet. It could have turned out differently. But we've felt that if we lost the boat, so be it, it was a good run while it lasted. On the other hand we actually did not have the cash flow to pay that much for hull coverage anyhow, not any choice for us really.

But liability? Essential if you are racing, which we have done everywhere, and important even if you aren't racing. It's one thing to crash your boat and write off the value, but if you crash into some guy's Swan 100, even if not racing that could happen, your downside is pretty awful.
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Old 25-12-2018, 11:26   #137
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Re: Insurance, what can you afford to lose?

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Thanks Susan. I appreciate your comments here, and I don’t mean to belabour the point, but once again you’re only framing the question in terms of Impact. As we’ve amply discussed here, this is only 1/2 of the risk equation. A full risk assessment must include Likelihood of said event.



I’m not saying we shouldn’t consider things in light of “affording a loss.” But to use my extreme example, the exact same argument can be used for meteor impacts. None of us carry this kind of insurance, not because the impact would be low, but because the Likelihood of this event is small (although definitely not zero).



But I fully agree with you: "There is no hard and fast rule, each individual situation and boat is different.” Insurance can be an excellent tool for mitigating and managing risk. I’m definitely not opposed to the idea; would be pretty hypocritically otherwise since I’ve always been fully insured (for my boats at least, not other stuff).


I checked my insurance policy, and there is no exclusion for meteor impacts. Therefore, I believe I am covered for meteor impacts.
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Old 25-12-2018, 16:02   #138
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Re: Insurance, what can you afford to lose?

I imagine there are a few sailors who read these forums and feel that there is a justifiable case to set up our own insurance company.
Pooling, excuse the pun, a group of who we consider certifiable ,vetted and remove the middle man etc
Simple but an insurance that we all own.
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Old 26-12-2018, 06:43   #139
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Re: Insurance, what can you afford to lose?

Is seems that this thread show the different vision of the responsability and liabilities incured by the possession of a house, car, boat, etc.
In the USA, laws makes you responsable for all environmental 'damages' in case of accidents, and the costs attached to these damages may be prohibitive. And in case of accidents implicating other parties (Marina, boats operators, property, etc) legal fees and claims from the other parties are often seen as a possible source of maximum gains, not just perceive as a correct compensation for the loss incured.
Adding to the equation the lack of financial means as a reason to save money is quite irresponsable behavior: Since you don't have the means to cover the damages you become the facto free of any consequences of an accident. But you create victims of your own neglect. In part this is also due to the abusive pretention of any demanding parties and the facts that american tribunals accept ridicules claims, much larger then the actual and real loss. In that situation, a liability coverage in my opinion is an absolut requirement to protect any third party in an accident and to make you a responsable sailor.
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Old 26-12-2018, 09:45   #140
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Re: Insurance, what can you afford to lose?

It’s fairly clear this discussion is mostly about hull insurance, not liability. Third party liability is the required insurance for for use of (apparently) an increasing number of marina facilities. It is also usually pretty cheap, so is usually a good deal (cost-benefit).

As to the question of whether this makes you “responsible” is debatable. It’s just as easy to argue it makes some people more irresponsible b/c they know they’re covered for whatever foolish action they take. And since liability insurance is always purchased to a maximum cap, does that suddenly make you irresponsible once claims exceed your purchased cap?

I just wish people would leave the moralizing out of these discussions...

BTW, liability insurance is usually quite cheap, which tells us that the real risk to the underwriters is quite low. Despite all the horror stories of massive payouts, those who sell liability insurance clearly think the risk is low.
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Old 26-12-2018, 10:20   #141
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Re: Insurance, what can you afford to lose?

This Wikipedia article about the history of insurance is pretty interesting. At least I thought so
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Old 26-12-2018, 12:57   #142
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Re: Insurance, what can you afford to lose?

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.......

BTW, liability insurance is usually quite cheap, which tells us that the real risk to the underwriters is quite low. Despite all the horror stories of massive payouts, those who sell liability insurance clearly think the risk is low.
In Australia most of the marinas ask for a aud$10 million liability coverage (usd$7.2 mil). To get that added to my US policy with Australia only coverage was prohibitive - quote was many thousands. To go from the default $300k to $1 mil was cheap. A seperate Australian policy for 10 mil liability was about usd$375, but it took some jumping through hoops to get.
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Old 26-12-2018, 13:09   #143
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Re: Insurance, what can you afford to lose?

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In Australia most of the marinas ask for a aud$10 million liability coverage (usd$7.2 mil). To get that added to my US policy with Australia only coverage was prohibitive - quote was many thousands. To go from the default $300k to $1 mil was cheap. A seperate Australian policy for 10 mil liability was about usd$375, but it took some jumping through hoops to get.
I assume that had to do with the complications of having a US policy in foreign lands. Australia does seem to be the land of heavy rules when it comes to cruising … at least that’s my impression from the commentary here.

You note the default $300k for US liability policies. I’ve never understood this given the common view that the USA is the most litigious jurisdiction in the world. You’d think standard liability policies would be in the multi-millions.

Here in Canada the default liability is $2 million. The common perception is that Canada is less litigious than the USA, but maybe that’s not the case?
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Old 26-12-2018, 13:36   #144
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Re: Insurance, what can you afford to lose?

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I assume that had to do with the complications of having a US policy in foreign lands. Australia does seem to be the land of heavy rules when it comes to cruising … at least that’s my impression from the commentary here.

You note the default $300k for US liability policies. I’ve never understood this given the common view that the USA is the most litigious jurisdiction in the world. You’d think standard liability policies would be in the multi-millions.

Here in Canada the default liability is $2 million. The common perception is that Canada is less litigious than the USA, but maybe that’s not the case?
Part of the price was probably due to unfamiliar location, but they already owned the comprehensive risk. Getting a 10mil policy on a boat in the US will be expensive.

The 300k limit is probably to keep the quote price low. My experience is that a lot of cruisers don't take the time to read or understand their policies.
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Old 26-12-2018, 14:15   #145
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Re: Insurance, what can you afford to lose?

Mike-
The low $300k US limit is probably a legacy issue. Used to be that Rhode Island only required a $10,000 drivers' liability policy--when every other state was 5x higher.
I'm taking a WAG that the boating limit was quite reasonable at the time it was imposed, and now? No one wants to open the debate on what to reset that to.
The same way that we had progressive new laws requiring sealed beam headlights on cars...and then after they were obsolete it took wel over a decade to get those removed. Or, the zoning laws that still require 2x4 studs, even though sheet steel ones are often lighter, strongly, and of course more fire resistant.
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Old 06-01-2019, 19:30   #146
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Re: Insurance, what can you afford to lose?

In U.S. Most marinas require insurance before you can leave your boat in marina.If your boat sinks you are responsible for all related issues,oil,fuel spills,removal of boat plus related fines can be very expensive.In Flordia if you ground in Keys fine is by square foot for bottom damage. Just food for thought.
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