Inboard engines and a changing world

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by newhaul

that or what the rigging doctor on YouTube runs .
They have a Honda 2000 that runs the motor and recharges the bank when depleted.
https://youtu.be/-_lCM9elcmA

Kinda proves the point, don't it .

I can see electric motors becoming more common for boats that don't venture very far, or that stay close to first-world marinas. But not for those who want to cruise far, or to more remote areas.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Kinda proves the point, don't it .

I can see electric motors becoming more common for boats that don't venture very far, or that stay close to first-world marinas. But not for those who want to cruise far, or to more remote areas.

they sailed across the Atlantic recently to Portugal .
The biggest problem that I see is with real heavy weather and rigging issues you can't motor yourself out of the danger to a place that you can comfortably effect repairs .

[DeepFrz]

Sailing UMA sailed across the Atlantic from NL to England and arrived at the dock with about 50% capacity left in the battery bank. Prior to that they sailed up from the US to Nova Scotia to Newfoundland. Not bad for not having an ICE generator on board.

Tesla stock just jumped to over $300. at the release of 3rd qtr. report causing at leas one hedge fund to lose billions. Tesla is selling cars as fast or faster than they can make them and the new Chinese Gigafactory is just coming on line. The model Y prototypes have been spotted around the US.

Don't believe what you read or see from the mainline press. There are powerful interests trying to undo Tesla's success.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by newhaul

they sailed across the Atlantic recently to Portugal .
The biggest problem that I see is with real heavy weather and rigging issues you can't motor yourself out of the danger to a place that you can comfortably effect repairs .

That's great, but just to be clear, they've just swapped one dino-powered engine for another. Instead of the diesel running the propeller they now have an electric engine that is powered by a gas generator. I really doubt that this is a more efficient use of petroleum.

Of course, if you don't need an engine, or only need it to move in and out of marinas/anchorages, then this might work OK. But that's not how most cruisers use their sailboats. And it's still less efficient than straight diesel.

I don't doubt it's possible for some, but that's not how most cruisers cruise.

Or maybe we all have to (re)learn how to be better sailors?

[DeepFrz]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

That's great, but just to be clear, they've just swapped one dino-powered engine for another. Instead of the diesel running the propeller they now have an electric engine that is powered by a gas generator. I really doubt that this is a more efficient use of petroleum.

Of course, if you don't need an engine, or only need it to move in and out of marinas/anchorages, then this might work OK. But that's not how most cruisers use their sailboats. And it's still less efficient than straight diesel.

I don't doubt it's possible for some, but that's not how most cruisers cruise.

Or maybe we all have to (re)learn how to be better sailors?

They only use the gas generator sporadically when needed and they have had poor success keeping them working.

See my post immediately above yours.

[DeepFrz]

Here is a report on a company running a small Tesla fleet. Each car is putting on about 17,000 miles a month.
https://qz.com/1737145/the-economics...million-miles/

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

... Of course in my ignorance I believe that battery powered automobiles will be an interim step, with fuel cells being a large part of the eventual end.
The Japanese are not going for battery power, but fuel cells, and I tend to think of them as not being stupid.
Then Hyundai May build a fuel cell truck as well...

The Future Lies In : EV? or FCEV?
In the race to zero-emission cars, which will win?
“... The future of zero-emission vehicles is often talked of as a race between those two forms of electric vehicle, the BEVs where the power comes from a storage battery, and the FCEVs that generate it in fuel cells...
... Or is it a race at all? Will we see a future where both types have their place?

HMG (Hyundai) is clearly committed to both.

The electric cars it sells today show world-beating efficiency and value and it will launch more of them in all main market sectors by 2021. On the other hand it is also planning another FCEV, as well as the amazing Nexo...
... In the face of all this uncertainty and change, it does seem unwise or even reckless to pin the planet’s hopes on just one kind of vehicle propulsion. We need the security of having both. It really shouldn’t be a race ...”
Very interesting analysis ☞ https://tech.hyundaimotorgroup.com/a...in-ev-or-fcev/

Alternative Fuel and Advanced Vehicle Search
Hydrogen Fuel Cell-Electric ☞ https://afdc.energy.gov/vehicles/sea...221,347,395,-1
Battery Electric ☞ https://afdc.energy.gov/vehicles/sea...221,347,395,-1

[bushytales]

Originally Posted by Chotu

That’s probably a fair point as well. I’m looking at this from the 40s. Not the 70s. And I’m putting together a brand new boat. So I would like that it last my lifetime. I don’t want to have to change everything because the power sources change, Or be squeezed out by the seismic shift of the economics of fossil fuel that is on its Or be squeezed out by the seismic shift of the economics of fossil fuel that is on its way

I’m thinking the more autonomous I can make these systems, the less I will be affected by all of the change that is coming in the next few decades.

Well, if you’re buying a yacht, relax and enjoy. Solar panels will run most sailing boats - and the wind is free. Just do it and worry about all those other issues when you finally get back....

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

...but just to be clear, they've just swapped one dino-powered engine for another. Instead of the diesel running the propeller they now have an electric engine that is powered by a gas generator. I really doubt that this is a more efficient use of petroleum.

There's no denying the simplicity and reliability of a basic diesel turning a propshaft, but at least in theory, an ICE generator, battery-bank and electric motor should be more efficient. ICEs are most efficient when they're optimised for running at one speed and turning a steady load (eg a generator), and electric motors are efficient and capable over a wider range of speeds and loads.

This (minus the batteries) is how most diesel locomotives and many big cruiseliners are powered. I don't know whether this sort of system yields enough efficiency yet at "sailboat" size to justify the complexity and cost.

[GordMay]

Another important reason why diesel-electric locomotives are hybrid, is because this eliminates the need for a mechanical transmission, as found in cars/trucks.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by DeepFrz

Sailing UMA sailed across the Atlantic from NL to England and arrived at the dock with about 50% capacity left in the battery bank. Prior to that they sailed up from the US to Nova Scotia to Newfoundland. Not bad for not having an ICE generator on board.

Tesla stock just jumped to over $300. at the release of 3rd qtr. report causing at leas one hedge fund to lose billions. Tesla is selling cars as fast or faster than they can make them and the new Chinese Gigafactory is just coming on line. The model Y prototypes have been spotted around the US.

Don't believe what you read or see from the mainline press. There are powerful interests trying to undo Tesla's success.

Your kidding right? Just look at their balance sheet, that gives you a very accurate picture of how well the companies doing. And in regards to their share price, unbelievably overvalued which says alot about where the herd is at "irrational exuberance ".

Teslas cash burn is off the charts.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by DeepFrz

They only use the gas generator sporadically when needed and they have had poor success keeping them working.

See my post immediately above yours.

Of course electric motors work well in sail boats when you don't use them. Do the math ,numbers don't lie, without ICE to charge range is extremely limited, just the way it is regardless of how you want it to be.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

There's no denying the simplicity and reliability of a basic diesel turning a propshaft, but at least in theory, an ICE generator, battery-bank and electric motor should be more efficient. ICEs are most efficient when they're optimised for running at one speed and turning a steady load (eg a generator), and electric motors are efficient and capable over a wider range of speeds and loads.

This (minus the batteries) is how most diesel locomotives and many big cruiseliners are powered. I don't know whether this sort of system yields enough efficiency yet at "sailboat" size to justify the complexity and cost.

A sailboat has the option of sailing, so there are ways to limit your engine usage. But this is true no matter the engine. Most long-duration cruisers do use their engines on a fairly regular basis. And I bet most shorter-term sailors/cruisers use engines even more often. Long passages are largely done with sail, so it's no big accomplishment to cross an ocean with an electric engine.

The basic point I was making is that simply swapping one ICE for another doesn't really change the calculus much. And as a matter of physics and engineering (and practicality), any electric propulsion system will require frequent battery recharging with today's technology. For cruising level boats of our size solar power just ain't gonna cut it right now. So it will require shore power charging, or as these folks have done, resort to a gas generator backup (combined with limited engine use, I assume).

I am all for electric-powered vehicles. But I am also aware of basic science. And I'm cautious of feel-good environmental measures which actually do little. The "green" movement is full of such actions. Right now, electric vehicles largely fall into this category. But as we move more and more to renewable (or nuclear) bulk electricity production, this will change.

[NorthernMac]

Originally Posted by Marvs

To be very simple about it. Cost and efficiency. Flexible solar panels are problematic, and the keel is not Serviceable . You already have a very efficient and mildly polluting mode of transportation. Better to keep it that way

I’d also imagine you’d ether end up with a throw away sailboat after X amount of cycles or years when turn the batteries/keel to junk, or they would be repowered with a small diesel and just be sailing around with a junk battery toxic keel which would be no fun if it ran aground, fire, etc.

I’d also like to see how solar sails would do folded into a sail bag or furled, plus getting slammed and banged around and stressed like sails are.


I’d also imagine everyone pushing for this stuff already has a auto prop, engine that is sized for the boat, monitors GPH to kts and also engine temps, never has the sails down and engine on if there’s wind, and keeps their bottom super clean? I’d imagine that all is super cheap and super easy compared to a battery keel and solar sails

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

There's no denying the simplicity and reliability of a basic diesel turning a propshaft, but at least in theory, an ICE generator, battery-bank and electric motor should be more efficient. ICEs are most efficient when they're optimised for running at one speed and turning a steady load (eg a generator), and electric motors are efficient and capable over a wider range of speeds and loads.

This (minus the batteries) is how most diesel locomotives and many big cruiseliners are powered. I don't know whether this sort of system yields enough efficiency yet at "sailboat" size to justify the complexity and cost.

Actually, that’s exactly how fossil fuel boat engines of all types work.

The prop is matched so the most efficient RPM range is used to put the boat at hull speed. Just like the generator.

It's more efficient than diesel electric as there are no losses between the power coming out if the engine and the prop. The two are attached through a simple reduction gear transmission.