ICW "Pirates". Have you Seen?

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by Boatguy30

I don't think libel is a big deal here in this situation, maybe in the UK or elsewhere. I believe it's called freedom of speech here. Politicians would have a whole new revenue stream if they could so those that lied about them.

Did they actually commit a crime in NC or is it just hard feeling from someone that got screwed?

Freedom of speech in the US includes being responsible for the harm your speech does to others and that's the reason for libel and slander laws. If you can't prove that it's true, you had better not go on the record saying something bad about any private citizen that harms their reputation or injures them in any way. Politicians are public figures and it is OK to say bad things about them as long as they can't prove that you knew you were lying (nearly impossible) and what you said was done in malice with intent (also hard to prove) to harm them.

In this case, the "pirates" are not public figures and if someone were to call ahead and attempt to warn marinas and businesses to not do business with them because they are chiselers and might rip them off, and the "pirates" find out about it and feel that they have been harmed, unless the person spreading the word about their dishonesty can actually prove that is true, then they would be subject to being sued for libel or slander. Even if you "know" someone is a ripoff artist, you have to be a little bit careful that you don't land yourself in legal hot water. Practically speaking, if I lived in a harbor and these two came to town and I had some friends who operated businesses I felt might be in danger of coming in contact with these people, I'd show my friends this thread and let them draw their own conclusions. Of course I'd also report their whereabouts to the guy who says he got ripped off. But I'd be very careful about going all over town broadcasting bad things about them.

The best way to handle this is the lawful way and that is what is being done. Of course the first step is to locate them so that the process can begin.

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by captain58sailin

Libel is not an issue if what is said is true.

Libel/slander is not an issue if you can PROVE that what is said is true. See the difference? You think it's true and I think it's true and it probably is true, but can either one of us prove that it is true? I think that "maybe" is about as close to yes as we can get.

But the best argument against trying to spread the word to every business all up and down the coast about these two is the practical impossibility of doing it, especially when nobody knows where they might go next and we all have other things to do in our lives besides trying to hound dog these two, which would be a full time job in itself. The best thing we can do is be on the lookout for them and pass the word back to the guy who's owed money so he can use the law to at least attempt to recover what he lost.

[I.Grind]

You'd probably be safe calling them crooks as the woman got arrested for shoplifting, and Pasquale has a judgement for fraud. Scammers, also pretty well documented. Liars, seems well documented also. I believe if you are only repeating what has appeared in a newspaper, you have a reasonable expectation of safety from libel. The liability should then fall on the newspaper which is held to a higher standard.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Horror Hotel

I talked to Pascal from Primadona for a while right before the check thing happened. He said he had sailed straight over with no stops, and that was his plan for a return trip. The town has several other full time anchored boats and they are itching for them to clear out. They want cruisers, but a certain type with cash, who only stay long term if in a slip. 99% of the locals were very glad when a well meaning cruiser towed Pascal outta there, everyone except the guy who got ripped off. His chances for recouping any money were greatly diminished when Pascal was towed away. Great for all, bad for one. There was a collection fund of sorts at one point, but I think it was stopped because he didn't want to take money if Pascal was going to be made to pay. As the fund would be impossible to return. I would gladly throw some bucks in a pot to help a guy who was just doing a nice thing. I think looking for pascal is almost point less. He's super broke and I'd rather not have him on our countries welfare system.

Earlier someone mentioned " south Texas justice" , violence has no part in the cruising community it's tacky, tasteless, and helps no one. Hopefully most texans don't share the same violent tendencies.

When you run a bank or a pawn shop, you lend people money. When you try to help someone who is down and out, plan on it being charity. It's unfortuante that a good natured guy got taken advantage of but I could have told him just looking at the boat to never plan on seeing a dime. I've done similar things (never that big of a check) but if I'm moved enough to do something, I assume the money is charity and am pleasently suprised if I get it back.

His chances of getting money changed not a bit when the boat left. This is what they term "judgement proof". The court isn't going to take away thier "home". The cops aren't going to be interested in chasing this down. Your best case senario is some vengance in the sense that the cops auction the boat off and keep all the profits for thier trouble while shipping these guys back to france, while you pay for court costs. While there may be a certain level of gratification in that, it won't do a thing to get the money back.

As far as your class warfare rant, show me any community that encourages homeless poor to move in. The harbor is public space and when a small group take it over for thier personal use and the public sees no benefit, of course they will question it. When they have examples like this, they start passing laws and rules to get rid of them.

[boatman61]

Its not only down and outs who try to screw you... people who've just bought expensive boats can be just as bad...

[captain58sailin]

Actually the burden of proof is on the person making the complaint. The injured party also has to show damage. In this case, no problem with proving what is true. Depending on how you word what you post makes you libel for a libel suit. Since libel is the written word and slander is the spoken word.

[captain58sailin]

Too true boatman 61!

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Its not only down and outs who try to screw you... people who've just bought expensive boats can be just as bad...

But I wouldn't likely be handing big checks over to a guy with a $500k boat.

Also, they aren't judgement proof typically. People with nothing have nothing to lose. If you have stuff, you have stuff to lose and you tend to police yourself rather than risk what you earned.

Well off people may not always be nice people but they are unlikely to pull similar stunts.

[I.Grind]

Originally Posted by captain58sailin

Actually the burden of proof is on the person making the complaint. The injured party also has to show damage. In this case, no problem with proving what is true. Depending on how you word what you post makes you libel for a libel suit. Since libel is the written word and slander is the spoken word.

That's why it is always smart use " I believe...", " I think...." And " In my option... " Then you are not reporting facts, merely sharing your interpretation of what you believe the situation to be. I believe that protects you from libel/slander, as well as flamers.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

But I wouldn't likely be handing big checks over to a guy with a $500k boat.

Also, they aren't judgement proof typically. People with nothing have nothing to lose. If you have stuff, you have stuff to lose and you tend to police yourself rather than risk what you earned.

Well off people may not always be nice people but they are unlikely to pull similar stunts.

Ahahahahaaaa... Yeah.. Right...

[Group9]

Originally Posted by captain58sailin

Actually the burden of proof is on the person making the complaint. The injured party also has to show damage. In this case, no problem with proving what is true. Depending on how you word what you post makes you libel for a libel suit. Since libel is the written word and slander is the spoken word.

I don't think I would be too worried about these people staying in one place long enough to file that kind of suit. They seem to operate on the theory that it's harder to hit a moving target.

[Badsanta]

If you ever find yourself in court leave your watch and stuff at home. I have seen these awarded as deposits or partial payments.

[Horror Hotel]

Hey Vallhalla360, take a chill pill. I don't know how you got class warfare out of my post ( not a rant, thank you). I've met both parties and feel for the guy who lost in the deal. Like I said, everyone is happy about him leaving except now he's going to be harder to serve. None of this needs to be argued with. And this was more of a personal loan than a bank or pawn operation. I find it odd that some found hidden meaning to my post. He's broke, he should have left for France months ago, what's the issue?

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Ahahahahaaaa... Yeah.. Right...

Please share tales of folks with half million dollar boats are involved in petty theft.

I'm not saying thier aren't scum bags with money out there but in terms of this discussion, the odds of who will steal and be a drag on the area is pretty clear.

[tropicalescape]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

Or you will get sued for libeling them. If that happens, in order to successfully defend yourself in court, you will need to spend money to hire a lawyer and have actual proof that what you have written or said about them is true. The guy who got ripped off could probably do that but the rest of us are just repeating rumors, though I have very little doubt those rumors are true.

I think that he should do just what he's doing, try to locate the boat and put a lien on it. The "pirates" may be broke but their boat is surely worth more than what is owed, and faced with losing it all, they just may find a rich uncle who can come up with the money for them. If not, they can lose their boat and get deported back to where they came from. But they shouldn't just be allowed to continue their chiseling ways and victimize even more good hearted people just because it's difficult to stop them.

Plus, just how do you propose the guy who got ripped off find and warn all the marinas and businesses owners who may be in the path of these two, wherever they may go? They've already left his local area where it might be practical to do that.

I dont think you can put a lien on his property unless he owns two cars ,two boats,two houses etc,you cant take his tools of trade or his house unless he has two...Spending money to chase a dead beat is useless...