I want to buy a Classic S&S Swan from the 70s...any feedback

[SofaKingFishy]

Originally Posted by TeddyDiver

^ what he says about the teak decks and engine. I've sailed some 10k nm on Swan 65. A fabulous sail boat but 4 crew is absolut minimum if the original sail plan. Never counted but some 20+ winches along other stuff so a lot of gear to maintain..

Yeppers~ Winch farms, and the helm is quite isolated, so a crew is an absolute must. No short handed sailing without some major rigging mods.

[Paul Annapolis]

Contact Marty Muench at Osmotech in Annapolis. He has extensive experience with both refitting, repairing and restoring Swans and may have some ideas or leads for you.

[Happ]

Originally Posted by 12 sail away

Dear CF,

I hope the 'collective experience' in this forum can provide me with some useful info and insights based on ownership -and I expect sometimes opinion...

I have sold my 43 ft sailing yacht this summer after owning it for more then 10 years....One who sails finds out what One really wants and really like...

I fell in love with the classical S&S Swans over the years by only looking at it ... never sailed one, read a lot about them and admiration only grows...can't find any (pre)owner who doesn't like these beauty's...

So I decided to look for one range 44 to 48ft...there are -relatively- many for sale..in the US much cheaper then Europe...I am aware of the 'deep holes in the water' aka Teakdeck, Mast, Osmosis, old engines but this can be part of negotiation...

I am biased...when I talk to fellow sailors (modern yacht owners) they overload me with 'DON'T/IDIOT/YOU HAVE NO CLUE/' however for every negative argument I happen to have 10 positive...quite naive I agree...

Are there any CF members that can provide me with any positive/negative/constructive experiences or points that I really should look after/pay attention? I read/subscribed the S&S Swan blogs etc.

Without insulting anyone...No I will never buy again a modern yachts like Bene/jea/Hanse/Bav/Duf etc. Simply because I don't like the modern looks, interior, massive aft cockpits, seagoing capabilities/stability etc. Nothing wrong with them, they are all good etc etc...but pls no energy in convincing me. Had a few of them, enjoyed them, S&S Swan is next.

For whatever this is worth I sailed on a late 70’s Swan 43 for a season. Wonderful boat! Beautiful interior! A dream to sail. I’m with you on the old classics. If you see one that is narrow with long overhangs then you are looking at a boat circa CCA design. You have to heel them over to get the longest waterline. If it has a wide beam with a narrow transom that is an early IOR design. Fast upwind, slow downwind.

The older boats are simply beautiful!

[goboatingnow]

It’s all good once you have deep deep pockets. Otherwise it’s a sh1t show. Get a real life quote to refit or replace teak decks for example , 50k will be gone in a flash

Fixing up as you go along will cost you even more. ( and its a nightmare )

Also accept you will never see your money back.

But other then that sounds like a good plan

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

It’s all good once you have deep deep pockets. Otherwise it’s a sh1t show. Get a real life quote to refit or replace teak decks for example , 50k will be gone in a flash

Fixing up as you go along will cost you even more. ( and its a nightmare )

Also accept you will never see your money back.

But other then that sounds like a good plan

So choose one which PO wasted 50k on, better plan

[merrydolphin]

Engine and deck. Good points made by a few here. A. Engine, yes they are old, and yes they leak. BUT, treated right they run for a loooooog time. 12000 hrs on one and still running great. ( 4-154). And another (4-236), I sold with 15K hrs. Still running great. New owner took her from Mex, to HI to Vancouver, to S Pac and back to Vancouver. Still same engine. Just did an upper end rebuild, valves head gasket etc……damn thing will not die! Don’t change the oil etc.? that’s a problem for any engine

Teak decks. Don’t even think of doing anything with them in the “developed” world US EU AU. Etc. go to a third world country that does a fair amount of boat work. Get it done there for a quarter the price or less. I have had good experiences in Latin America. I have owned two S & S boats. Loved them both. Happy hunting

[WindintheWillow]

Will you be sailing her in the Netherlands? I ask because they tend to be deep draft boats and not friendly for your waters (my own boat is on the Markermeer). If you are looking to sail in the Med then I suggest looking in Spain, Greece or Italy. Beware the VAT trap of buying outside the EU - make sure that there is not a frightening EU import charge! I do love S&S - my own yearning is for a She 36 to keep- on the west coast of France - just about the prettiest production boat ever built. and the feeling of acceleration when she catches the wind, heels a bit and puts her shoulder to the sea is just astounding. A Baltic might be a good alternative or one of the Holman Pye beauties (Bowman 46!) May you find your dream and enjoy full sails and flowing sheets.

[Hermia II]

Yes you can always find cons. I've sailed Swans in the 80's as a charter skipper, in Scandinavia, across the Atlantic, in the Caribbean across again, in the Med across again etc. Swan 42, 47, 51, 57 and 651. Yea engines get old, that's in all boats. Teak decks get old, but a lot slower on a Swan than almost any boat, because Swans are built according to S&S (Olin Stevens) standard. For example the steering systems are second to none (important huh). The rigs are fabulous, not the pipe with pop riveted end fittings of standard rigs (Seldén for example). Keels, keel bolts, mast steps, chainplates etc. Top Notch. Plywood is teak covered birch, best you can get. Look at the door arches, work top fiddles all laminated from glued teak vaneers. You can not buy this for money any more. All bulkheads and cupboards glassed to the hull stiffening the whole structure. These days these things are glued in with Sika Bond, cheap, sub standard. You will not notice at a boat show, but a couple of thousand miles on the ocean it makes a great difference. The electrical system is really sound and you have to start ripping out all the electrical crap that has been installed subsequently. You get a boat built to the highest of standards. I now own a Swan 57 that had a new deck (but you don't need a teak deck, this was an option and as standard Swans were sold with painted GRP decks, but very few chose the standard option), a new engine and it was painted with Awlgrip, so I was lucky. I have changed everything, sails, standing and running rigging, winches, furler, hatches, windlass, heads, stove, a lot of electrics, all instrumentation and added Genset, Satcom, SSB, heating, LiFePo4, alternator, charger, etc. etc. Still I have a yacht at half the price of a Hanse 57 which is flashy but a yacht that would never stand up to the strength and quality of a Swan which would show when things get really rough. In a Swan you always feel secure.
We had a Swan 57, Johanna, that sailed over the Atlantic ridge going into the Bay of Biscay on an easterly heading at night in a following gale. It was an error from the helmsman who did not react properly going over a crest and falling 9 meters straight down the front of the wave. The mast moved 1 foot forward at the foot, the main bulkhead was cracked vertically and two crew had a concussion. But the rig was standing, the boat was tight and could continue sailing. In the days it was the only Swan taken back to the yard for repair. She's still sailing, beautiful as ever. Get a Swan, it's quality and beauty, Olin Stephens soul is hovering over it. It is something completely different.

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by Hermia II

In a Swan you always feel secure.

^ This.

A Swan is not the boat for me anymore but as I mentioned earlier after many thousands of miles at sea on a Swan 51 (Frers) I treasure the fond memories and never once felt 'unsafe' regardless of the weather or sea state.

That's a nice feeling in a sea (pun intended!) of mostly poorly built plastic bath tubs these days.

Of course weather forecasting and availability is much better now, so most of the time this ultimate strength feeling is not needed as much anymore.

Although I'm sure that people who sail up in Northern Europe will still appreciate it.

[Hermia II]

Sometimes you can not PredictWind-yourself out of trouble.

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by Hermia II

Sometimes you can not PredictWind-yourself out of trouble.

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by Hermia II

Sometimes you can not PredictWind-yourself out of trouble.

Yes, and on a deep draft Swan (the 51 was 9ft ! ) you can throw 2 or 3 reefs in the main, and the staysail or storm jib on an inner forestay (no serious cruising boat should be without an inner forestay, even a modern catamaran), and just hunker down and punch through it, even upwind (and upwind on the 51 meant 28 apparent - not cruisersforum upwind of 45deg or something... that's reaching ). A Swan will just carry on through pretty much anything.

It will still be wet and unpleasant for the crew, but you will be safe and you will get there

[svSnow]

We looked at ships for 13 years to start a sailing live on the oceans.

Looked at a lot of serious cruising boat in particular Dutch, as we are too, (Koopmans, Contest) and Sparkman and Stephens and many other. In the process after 5 years of looking at ships, we start reading the S&S Swan forum and got hooked on S&S Swans. For the rest of the 8 years of planning we had set our focus on an S&S Swan. For years a S&S Swan 48 or the smaller S&S Swan 43. We red about everything or at least almost everything on the S&S Swan Association forum. Totally convinced for 8 years of dreaming we wanted an S&S Swan.

In the last 3 years of planning we changed a bit smaller and focused on the S&S Swan 431, better to handle with two and still smal enough to not be a 'big' ship with 'big' ship prices. Maybe the best cruising swan for a couple, no problem even handeling lines on the mast.

We bought our Swan when she was two weeks on the market. We now sail a S&S Swan 431 around the world and live on her with two people from 2017 continually, plan to grow old on her, it's our home.

We knew enough because of al the reading on the S&S Swan Association. You can find al your answers; teak deck for a +/- S&S Swan 44 @25K can be done if you want teak. You can do nothing or artificial teak, do not listen to rumors get informed by people who dit it.

A new engine @ 15-25k I think can be done, sometimes cheaper think Beta Engines or rebuild an old engine.

With 50k to restore, do it wisely it not much or go smaller. But most owner cherish there Swans and kept them in .the best conditions, look for those, take your time

We keep it short now but we think a S&S Swan is the beste of best if you want a sailor sail ship build to sail oceans.

Post more later, start reading the S&S Swan Association forum seriously and you know why.

We are currently in Panama, sailed from the Netherlands and getting ready to cross the Pacific.

[badadim]

There was one of those Swans for sale in Point Roberts back in 2018 sold below 30k. The 1st picture below shows a wise man from NZ flew all the way up to get her. I keep thinking of her every day as a lifetime opportunity lost...

You may also look at Kaufman, Swan's replica with wider stern for better downwind. The 2nd picture shows one of the most known Kaufman 47 - Quetzal sailed by John Kretschmer.

With sailing, boat-ownership, boat-work experience, and right yard location you can cut labor bills 80-90% down if DIY. Hull blisters, epoxy barrier, rebuilding steering, re-power, re-rig, new sails, ripping off teak and replacing it with teak composite, re-wring and upgrading to LFPs... budget 100~200k depends on how much of your own man-hours you invest. Guess how do I know?

The end result: old-new beauty you are 100% confident in and 20-30 years of sailing in style.

I never argue about taste, but can't resist on this one: old Swan without teak is not Swan!

[12 sail away]

Originally Posted by WindintheWillow

Will you be sailing her in the Netherlands? I ask because they tend to be deep draft boats and not friendly for your waters (my own boat is on the Markermeer). If you are looking to sail in the Med then I suggest looking in Spain, Greece or Italy. Beware the VAT trap of buying outside the EU - make sure that there is not a frightening EU import charge! I do love S&S - my own yearning is for a She 36 to keep- on the west coast of France - just about the prettiest production boat ever built. and the feeling of acceleration when she catches the wind, heels a bit and puts her shoulder to the sea is just astounding. A Baltic might be a good alternative or one of the Holman Pye beauties (Bowman 46!) May you find your dream and enjoy full sails and flowing sheets.

Thanks for feedback all....really appreciate the time `CF's put in the replies and very useful...also confirms my 'gut feeling'...great sailing performance, safe, stable, but potential bottomless wrt $ refit if you are unlucky.
No I will not use the boat in The Netherlands, had boats here and frankly done with weather, rain, temperature, grey skies, although this is pure personal...so planning for Med only (Italy) , useful to have my wife with me as well...
Teak is as many warn my main concern...costs, time, maintenance etc. I hear horror stories enough. Read an article about a 65ft Swan (owner dutch guy) for teak plus some other hull stuff :185K euro.. so 50KEuro budget for refit 'feels' more than enough, to do what you want, if I would buy a awb of 15 yrs old or so. But that is not the case I learn when to replace a teak deck of a 44-47 ft. So either new teak or bad teak with a low sales price...