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Old 18-05-2021, 12:05   #1
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I cannot get this boat registered...ideas?

Hello,

This is an ongoing nightmare for me.

I am a US and EU citizen living in Portugal.
I bought a boat from a UK citizen, located in Denmark
I began the Registration and insurance process.

Things started going wrong. Portuguese registration was stymied by bureaucracy and an unwillingness for Germany or UK to insure Portugal registered boats.

I obtained assistance with UK registration, which was still allowed (pre-brexit) but Covid hit and I was unable to obtain a tonnage survey before January and now may no longer register in the UK.

I switched to Documentation (not sure what the difference is), in the US. They have rejected my application because:

1) my boat is not marked with itís proposed NEW port and NEW official number. How I get an official number without documenting the boat I am not sure.

2) They state the bill of sale (RYA sale form) is not recordable because it was not notarised with an apostille. It was witnessed but not notarized and there is not mention of notarization on the form.

3) The 1981 invoice and purchase order I sent are not eligible for build evidence or confirmation of the sale. Stating they do not convey title outright to the buyer (why when I also included the customs and excise SAD (C88) is not adequate I am not sure.) These show showing the original buyer as owner and VAT paid.

4) They want a copy of the UK registration and evidence of removal from the foreign registry. (this is doable I hope in the 80 or so days remaining to me.

In the meantime, the boat sits near Aarhus Denmark, and I cannot drive or fly there during shutdown. And they are tired of my boat sitting in their Marina.

I had an offer by some good folks to move my boat to Sweden, until I mentioned no registration or insurance.

I wake up cursing at night. It's t years now and its like an unending nightmare.

Solutions would be welcome.

PS, Sweden who does NOT require a boat of my size to even be registered, will do so IF I get the tonnage survey. I tried contacting a local surveyor, and could get no response.
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Old 18-05-2021, 16:44   #2
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Re: I cannot get this boat registered...ideas?

Try Jersey registration? The boat ends up on the UK register but with a Jersey agent as the point of contact. Not too expensive (couple hundreds of pounds per year). Available for UK citizens who are not resident in the UK (unlike regular SSR registration).

Some agents such as Oceanskies apparently (I have not used them) offer a full service for about GBP2500 including tonnage survey in the EU and 10 years registration.

I had my boat registered in this way for slightly less money with Bluewater Supplies over the 10 years but had to deal with some of the hassle myself. But I did not have some of the used boat issues you do.
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Old 18-05-2021, 16:45   #3
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Re: I cannot get this boat registered...ideas?

Also available (according to the Oceanskies website) to citizens from many EU nations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by conway View Post
Try Jersey registration? The boat ends up on the UK register but with a Jersey agent as the point of contact. Not too expensive (couple hundreds of pounds per year). Available for UK citizens who are not resident in the UK (unlike regular SSR registration).

Some agents such as Oceanskies apparently (I have not used them) offer a full service for about GBP2500 including tonnage survey in the EU and 10 years registration.

I had my boat registered in this way for slightly less money with Bluewater Supplies over the 10 years but had to deal with some of the hassle myself. But I did not have some of the used boat issues you do.
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Old 18-05-2021, 18:09   #4
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I cannot get this boat registered...ideas?

Not just EU, Jersey Ship Registry allows citizens of Commonwealth countries as well.

You will need to redo your bill of sale with the one they provide if itís not already on a UK form.

Oceanskies provide the local address - you donít need to be resident in the UK.

They do require proof of deletion from the previous registry.

If youíre smaller than 15m then you can likely use the simplified tonnage survey. If you do need one then youíll need to find an authorised tonnage surveyor.
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Old 18-05-2021, 18:19   #5
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Re: I cannot get this boat registered...ideas?

US documentation requires their specific bill of sale.
Being marked is no big deal, just say "yes" on the form.
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Old 18-05-2021, 18:28   #6
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Re: I cannot get this boat registered...ideas?

And get the appostille.
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Old 18-05-2021, 18:36   #7
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pirate Re: I cannot get this boat registered...ideas?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sepharad View Post
Hello,

This is an ongoing nightmare for me.

I am a US and EU citizen living in Portugal.
I bought a boat from a UK citizen, located in Denmark
I began the Registration and insurance process.

Things started going wrong. Portuguese registration was stymied by bureaucracy and an unwillingness for Germany or UK to insure Portugal registered boats.

I obtained assistance with UK registration, which was still allowed (pre-brexit) but Covid hit and I was unable to obtain a tonnage survey before January and now may no longer register in the UK.

I switched to Documentation (not sure what the difference is), in the US. They have rejected my application because:

1) my boat is not marked with it’s proposed NEW port and NEW official number. How I get an official number without documenting the boat I am not sure.

2) They state the bill of sale (RYA sale form) is not recordable because it was not notarised with an apostille. It was witnessed but not notarized and there is not mention of notarization on the form.

3) The 1981 invoice and purchase order I sent are not eligible for build evidence or confirmation of the sale. Stating they do not convey title outright to the buyer (why when I also included the customs and excise SAD (C88) is not adequate I am not sure.) These show showing the original buyer as owner and VAT paid.

4) They want a copy of the UK registration and evidence of removal from the foreign registry. (this is doable I hope in the 80 or so days remaining to me.

In the meantime, the boat sits near Aarhus Denmark, and I cannot drive or fly there during shutdown. And they are tired of my boat sitting in their Marina.

I had an offer by some good folks to move my boat to Sweden, until I mentioned no registration or insurance.

I wake up cursing at night. It's t years now and its like an unending nightmare.

Solutions would be welcome.

PS, Sweden who does NOT require a boat of my size to even be registered, will do so IF I get the tonnage survey. I tried contacting a local surveyor, and could get no response.
If you have a Portuguese bank account talk to your bank manager about insurance for a Portuguese registered boat..
They do house and vehicle insurance, maybe they will do boat insurance.. let's face it, the Portuguese have to insure their boats as well.
Regarding the bureaucracy, what exactly do you mean.
I registered a boat in Portugal and it was fairly straightforward.. mind the boat was in Portugal at the time.
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Old 18-05-2021, 20:19   #8
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Re: I cannot get this boat registered...ideas?

Poland will register it for you without any trouble.
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Old 18-05-2021, 21:16   #9
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Re: I cannot get this boat registered...ideas?

I am a Transport Canada Appointed Tonnage Measurer. As Canada follows IMO measurement rules, my measurements are accepted by all IMO signatories (and a few other countries).

I may be able to do what is called a "sistership measurement " but only if I have previously measured the same model and have those on record. Let me know what the boat is and I'll let you know if I have records for that model.

PS, I have no records on anything smaller than 42'
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Old 18-05-2021, 21:41   #10
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Re: I cannot get this boat registered...ideas?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sepharad View Post
Hello,

This is an ongoing nightmare for me.

I am a US and EU citizen living in Portugal.
I bought a boat from a UK citizen, located in Denmark
I began the Registration and insurance process.

Things started going wrong. Portuguese registration was stymied by bureaucracy and an unwillingness for Germany or UK to insure Portugal registered boats.

I obtained assistance with UK registration, which was still allowed (pre-brexit) but Covid hit and I was unable to obtain a tonnage survey before January and now may no longer register in the UK.

I switched to Documentation (not sure what the difference is), in the US. They have rejected my application because:

1) my boat is not marked with itís proposed NEW port and NEW official number. How I get an official number without documenting the boat I am not sure.

2) They state the bill of sale (RYA sale form) is not recordable because it was not notarised with an apostille. It was witnessed but not notarized and could get no response.
Why not contact a local yacht brokerage and obtain their recommendation for a local yacht transfer agent or documentation service? Why lose sleep when there are likely professional service providers who do this kind of thing all the time.
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Old 19-05-2021, 15:15   #11
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Re: I cannot get this boat registered...ideas?

An apostille is the normal "notary" for any international document. Notary is only valid where it is recognized, and never across borders.

Listen to your Coast Guard or find an agent who can do this for you. Even an agent will need valid (apostilled) documents.
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Old 22-05-2021, 10:24   #12
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Re: I cannot get this boat registered...ideas?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sepharad View Post
Hello,

This is an ongoing nightmare for me.

I am a US and EU citizen living in Portugal. One is not a citizen of the EU, one is a citizen of a country within the EU. If you are a citizen of a country of the EU then you should be able to register your vessel with that flag of country, just as you can document your vessel with the USCG and be flagged as a USA boat because you are a citizen of the USA.
I bought a boat from a UK citizen, located in Denmark
I began the Registration and insurance process.

Things started going wrong. Portuguese registration was stymied by bureaucracy and an unwillingness for Germany or UK to insure Portugal registered boats.

I obtained assistance with UK registration, which was still allowed (pre-brexit) but Covid hit and I was unable to obtain a tonnage survey before January and now may no longer register in the UK.

I switched to Documentation (not sure what the difference is), in the US. They have rejected my application because: USCG documentation is similar to UK registration in that documentation is the Federal procedure for titling and registering a vessel.

Reference USCG guidance for initial documentation of a vessel at this link: https://www.dco.uscg.mil/Portals/9/D...-09-113141-553

1) my boat is not marked with it’s proposed NEW port and NEW official number. How I get an official number without documenting the boat I am not sure.You will need to display a name and a hailing port on your USCG documented vessel and the USCG requires a name and a hailing port designation on their application form for documenting the boat. Pick a name and a port and put it on the form and on your boat.
What do you mean by Official Number????


2) They state the bill of sale (RYA sale form) is not recordable because it was not notarised with an apostille. It was witnessed but not notarized and there is not mention of notarization on the form. The original of a Bill of Sales should be notarized as to sellers execution, get it properly notarized. Simple solution to your prior inappropriate procedure when purchasing the boat. And if you desire to document the boat with the USCG then use the USCG Bill of Sale form.


3) The 1981 invoice and purchase order I sent are not eligible for build evidence or confirmation of the sale. Stating they do not convey title outright to the buyer They are correct in stating such. You do not have the proper documents.(why when I also included the customs and excise SAD (C88) is not adequate I am not sure.) These show showing the original buyer as owner and VAT paid. Obtain the proper documents from the prior owner, specifically starting with the Builder's Certification and First Transfer of Title.
If you do not have such you do not have complete documentation of title and thus have imperfection of titling which can complicate any and all registrations and also a future sale of the vessel. Lost or destroyed documents become very problematic because you do not have evidence to provide reasonable assurance of ownership and transfers of ownership.


4) They want a copy of the UK registration and evidence of removal from the foreign registry. (this is doable I hope in the 80 or so days remaining to me. Yes all vessel registries require proof of removal from any and all prior registries [including titling by a State of the USA] as a vessel is can only have one title and can only have one nationality. So simply obtain proof of removal from the UK registry.

In the meantime, the boat sits near Aarhus Denmark, and I cannot drive or fly there during shutdown. And they are tired of my boat sitting in their Marina.

I had an offer by some good folks to move my boat to Sweden, until I mentioned no registration or insurance. Get the boat promptly insured, registration / documentation should follow in due course of the administrative processing.

I wake up cursing at night. It's t years now and its like an unending nightmare. This isn't rocket science nor difficult. Take time to educate yourself. Informative reference links for the USCG:

https://www.dco.uscg.mil/Our-Organiz...ons-and-Forms/

https://www.dco.uscg.mil/Our-Organiz...on-Center-FAQ/


Solutions would be welcome.

PS, Sweden who does NOT require a boat of my size to even be registered, will do so IF I get the tonnage survey. I tried contacting a local surveyor, and could get no response.Sweden rules [read, the lack of rule requiring registration of a boat] only apply to vessels while operating in Sweden's territory. If your boat is located or navigates elsewhere then you need to get it registered / flagged. An unregistered vessel is an unflagged vessel without nationality under UNCLOS.
VAT paid status requires its own set of documentation in order to avail free circulation in the EU. Brexit has made that a bit more nuanced and complex. If you are a resident of the EU, or the vessel is flagged by an EU country, and the vessel enters / resides in the custom's territory of the EU then VAT will need to have been paid. If you are not a resident of the EU, and you document the vessel with the USCG then the vessel presumably could be brought into the EU under temporary admission [a.k.a. temporary import] and VAT & Custom's duty will be deferred for up to 18 months but the temporary admission must be discharged by exporting the vessel to a place outside of the EU before the 18 month T.A. period expires. T.A. is yet another subject matter.

Enjoy your boating.
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Old 22-05-2021, 11:00   #13
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Re: I cannot get this boat registered...ideas?

FYI as to the USCG:

WHAT ARE THE REQUIREMENTS FOR DOCUMENTATION?
The basic requirements for documentation are to demonstrate ownership of the vessel, U.S. citizenship, and eligibility for the endorsement sought.


HOW IS VESSEL OWNERSHIP ESTABLISHED?
If the vessel is new and has never been documented, ownership may be established by submission of a Builder's Certification (Form CG-1261), naming the applicant for documentation as the person for whom the vessel was built or to whom the vessel was first transferred. Also acceptable are a transfer on a Manufacturer's Certificate of Origin, a copy of the State Registration or Title, or foreign registration showing that the applicant owns the vessel.

In the case of a previously owned vessel, the applicant must present bills of sale, or other evidence showing transfer of the vessel from the person who last documented, titled, or registered the vessel, or to whom the vessel was transferred on a Builder's Certification or Manufacturer's Certificate of Origin. If title was transferred by some means other than a bill of sale, contact the NVDC for assistance.

WHAT ARE THE VESSEL NAME AND HAILING PORT MARKING REQUIREMENTS?
Documented vessels do not display their official numbers on the outside of the hull, but are identified by the name and hailing port. The application for documentation must include a name for the vessel composed of letters of the Latin alphabet or Arabic or Roman numerals and may not exceed 33 characters. The name may not be identical, actually or phonetically, to any word or words used to solicit assistance at sea; may not contain or be phonetically identical to obscene, indecent, or profane language, or to racial or ethnic epithets. Once established, a vessel's name may not be changed without application, fees, and the consent of the Director, National Vessel Documentation Center. There is no rule against duplication of names for documented vessels, so hailing ports are helpful in identifying vessels.


HOW DO I MARK MY VESSEL?
The official number assigned to documented vessels, preceded by the abbreviation "NO." must be marked in block-type Arabic numerals at least three inches high on some clearly visible interior structural part of the hull. The number must be permanently affixed so that alteration, removal, or replacement would be obvious and cause some scarring or damage to the surrounding hull area.

The name and hailing port of a recreational vessel must be marked together on some clearly visible exterior part of the hull. The vessel name of a commercial vessel must also be marked on the port and starboard bow and the vessel name and the hailing port must also be marked on the stern. All markings may be made by any means and materials that result in durable markings and must be at least four inches in height, made in clearly legible letters of the Latin alphabet or Arabic or Roman numerals. The "hailing port" must include both a place and a State, Territory, or possession of in the United States. The state may be abbreviated.
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Old 01-06-2021, 14:49   #14
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Re: I cannot get this boat registered...ideas?

I can recommend a surveyor if that helps. If he cannot go himself maybe he can recommend someone more local. Hope it helps.
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Old 01-06-2021, 15:09   #15
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Re: I cannot get this boat registered...ideas?

Send me a PM. We'll surely sort that problem out.
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