How Do You Determine If A Boat Is "Seaworthy"?

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Julie Mor

I think everyone with a reasonable amount of education in the world of sailing knows the manufacturers with the best reputations for building quality boats. Their good reputation precedes them. And if their price was the same as the boats of lesser quality, the latter wouldn't be in business.



But if you're in the market for the latter, you might need something more than the manufacturer's brochure, opinions of others or a fast talking salesman to get you to buy.



Any event that has a fixed start date (no picking the good weather window), open ocean sailing (no easy escape to shore if the weather kicks up) and several hundreds of miles in length can provide good data as to the durability, build quality and/or seaworthiness of the boat. And when the weather really tests the fleet, the data can be even better. If over time you see a trend, it's a pretty good indication the data is reliable.

I would have to disagree, many sailors will have opinions of perceived quality leaders. Often this is based on the finely hand finished interiors , bad expensive leathers etc. few will have experienced sailing them.

Fast talking salesmen inhabit both brands/types.

The main issue is that few sailors buy boats from the head. Most buy from the heart.

I've has the opportunity to sail both ends of the market and visited their factories etc.

Most of the time you are paying for hand finished work as opposed to automation. That's what is making the difference. Beneteau paint line has greater investment then the whole of HR factory.

Boat evaluation is not as simple as comparing cost or sale price

Not is looking at offshore racing or rally's necessarily a good way either

[jmschmidt]

Good survey? Never seen one. Had one that said "Engine, looks good, didn't try to start it, here's my bill. Surveys are a real pig in a poke. I like Island Time 025's advice. When I was looking for my first boat I was sitting at the bar at my club next the chief yacht measurer for the Hawaii Yacht Racing Association, a great old Dutch, Danish or German guy (don't remember which). I asked about a good cursing boat that could be reasonably competitively raced. His answer, "Vell I tell you Yack (he meant Jack) za best cruising boat ist also za fasted racing boat you can buy." How that Ben? Because za less time you have to spend on zat f...... ocean za betta.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by jmschmidt

... When I was looking for my first boat I was sitting at the bar at my club next the chief yacht measurer for the Hawaii Yacht Racing Association, a great old Dutch, Danish or German guy (don't remember which). I asked about a good cursing boat that could be reasonably competitively raced. His answer, "Vell I tell you Yack (he meant Jack) za best cruising boat ist also za fasted racing boat you can buy." How that Ben? Because za less time you have to spend on zat f...... ocean za betta.

Nice advise

[TheThunderbird]

Julie has a rock solid belief in her approach, which I see being hardly shared by almost all commentators.

Point is the variety of situations, topics, moments in time.... on sea, as compared to poor data collection and the limited numerical basis for serious statistical evaluation (polls demand a minimum of #125 samples to validate ).
Say that #23Benes participate the SH, and get back home,..so f... what? Maybe they feel crazy, got sponsored, or lost their eyeballs for seasickness...and, yes there are many more Benes around than any other brand... so? It is more likely they are everywhere..
it is more likely that a Bavaria capsizes than a Hynckley, as they sail in say a 18:1 ratio! Put two adide, for a truly experimental check test.

I have a boat 50m afar from mine, a family crew sailed her to ANTARTICA. Guess wether it is more akin to the requirements outlined by the old school (and our austrian friend) then anything else...
Sure, much is about scope of navigation, as most of us dont dream about Antartica, but the Caribe.

I stress this. On top of a good! Quality basis, any boat owner must develop his/her own specification, details, parts.. in Order to fit to own requirements and personal tastes and psichological feelings... those which make you feel at peace, happy, secured... therefore stronger in dire times!
E.g. every second year I cut off two pieces of anchor line, those two most strained close to anchor. I feel ok about it,.. happy me. Dont do it if you dont feel alike :-) .. but I feel better so! (Yap, I am a mechanical eng btw)

In sailing, it is much about asking a lot around, think over and develop your own way :-)
However, whatever EPIRBs, MOB devices and military rescue system are implemented... some old school truths still applies.
And yes.. GYPSY MOTH IV provides to me an excellent example of seaworthiness, especially so with Sir F.Chichester at her helm <3

[stillbuilding]

Originally Posted by TheThunderbird

Julie has a rock solid belief in her approach, which I see being hardly shared by almost all commentators.

Point is the variety of situations, topics, moments in time.... on sea, as compared to poor data collection and the limited numerical basis for serious statistical evaluation (polls demand a minimum of #125 samples to validate ).
Say that #23Benes participate the SH, and get back home,..so f... what? Maybe they feel crazy, got sponsored, or lost their eyeballs for seasickness...and, yes there are many more Benes around than any other brand... so? It is more likely they are everywhere..
it is more likely that a Bavaria capsizes than a Hynckley, as they sail in say a 18:1 ratio! Put two adide, for a truly experimental check test.

I have a boat 50m afar from mine, a family crew sailed her to ANTARTICA. Guess wether it is more akin to the requirements outlined by the old school (and our austrian friend) then anything else...
Sure, much is about scope of navigation, as most of us dont dream about Antartica, but the Caribe.

I stress this. On top of a good! Quality basis, any boat owner must develop his/her own specification, details, parts..
And yes.. GYPSY MOTH IV provides to me an excellent example of seaworthiness, especially so with Sir F.Chichester at her helm <3

And yet I seem to recall that Sir F thought Gypsy Moth as an absolute pig to sail!


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by stillbuilding

And yet I seem to recall that Sir F thought Gypsy Moth as an absolute pig to sail!


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum

And further, her designer (Illingworth) said in his autobiography (or similar book, I can't remember) that he made several changes in the plans that Sir F requested, and that in his view compromised the design. Sir F and wife were dismayed at the launching ceremony when the boat hobby-horsed as soon as she was free floating.

And further yet, a good friend sailed upon her after her restoration, and yep, he too said she was a pig to sail.

One wonders how these opinions reflect upon her "seaworthyness"?

Jim

[TacomaSailor]

TheThunderBird said;
"Point is the variety of situations, topics, moments in time.... on sea, as compared to poor data collection and the limited numerical basis for serious statistical evaluation (polls demand a minimum of #125 samples to validate ).
Say that #23Benes participate the SH, and get back home,..so f... what? Maybe they feel crazy, got sponsored, or lost their eyeballs for seasickness...and, yes there are many more Benes around than any other brand... so? It is more likely they are everywhere.."

I think you are a little confused about the difference between MEASUREMENT and STATISTICAL ANALYSIS!

Statistics are only needed if you can not MEASURE the entire population. If you do measure everything - then you know everything!

And the statement about #124 samples is just plain wrong on many technical (statistical) levels.

If there are 10,000 40-foot Beneteaus in the world and 100 of them successfully and safely sail around the world then we have a measurement! We know that 100% of the Benenteau 40s were able to complete the task. We are not interested in considering that 100 circumnavigators being a sample of the population of Beneteaus. They are the entire population of circumnavigating Beneteaus!

We are studying boats that sail in Blue Water not the population of Beneteau boats.

Therefore we have measured the entire population of BlueWater Beneteaus.

This is not rocket science nor is it a statistical study. It is an empirical observation of the behavior of the population of circumnavigating Beneteau boats.

I would be very confident a boat is capable of doing the job I asked of it IF I observed dozens of identical boats doing that job with no failures.

Seaworthy is measured by successfully crossing the sea in those conditions you expect to encounter.

Let us not over think or over analyze this question.

[Julie Mor]

Tacoma, thank you for injecting objective logic into the conversation. You see what I am seeing, but stated it much better.

Some of the replies hinted that the race data is grasping at straws. While I believe there is good data that can be extracted from races and rallies, I can't say that data alone would give me rock solid confidence that a particular boat brand has unquestionably proven itself in the area of build quality, seaworthiness, etc. That data is just one piece of the pie.

But considering how little reliable data is out there, and how the entire boat selling industry relies on emotion and the absence of information to sell boats, anyone looking to purchase has to use whatever data is available, as long as it's reliable and meets their informational objectives.

[Jon Eisberg]

Originally Posted by Julie Mor

But considering how little reliable data is out there, and how the entire boat selling industry relies on emotion and the absence of information to sell boats, anyone looking to purchase has to use whatever data is available, as long as it's reliable and meets their informational objectives.

Sorry, but as others have already hinted, it seems you may be 'over-thinking' this whole thing, just a bit...

:-))

What do you ultimately plan to do with this boat, anyway? In my observation over the years, many who seem to obsess the most over their choice of a boat, and then fitting it out for 'voyaging', wind up motoring down the ICW, whereupon they sit and wait for a flat calm day to motor across the Stream to Bimini, or West End...

:-))

seriously, what do you realistically envision doing with your boat?

[JerseyJoe]

If looking at races to find a 'seaworthy' boat are you looking to race a boat or cruise? Plenty of DNF's, abandonments and lost boats in races too. I certainly would not base a race entrant as criteria for 'seaworthiness'.
I once surveyed an older and very well known and respected american made and designed B......
The the boat was clean, newly painted and well outfitted with 12 sails and a new engine. The claim to fame of the seller was that it participated in the Marion-Bermuda race. It even had a nice shiny plaque commemorating the event on it's bulkhead wall, right next to the distorted cabin door and cabinetry.
All this told me was the boat was raced hard, abused and with hull distortion and compression well beyond the normal expectations of a buyer looking to buy a boat for safe cruising. A survey would probably not picked up on such details based on experience of other surveys I have done in the past.

Could I have sailed the boat? Yes?

Could I have done coastal cruising with the boat without major issues? Probably yes.

Would I have felt comfortable crossing oceans in it? No.

Yet plenty of other boats of the same make and model I would have felt safe in and certainly these boats are found throughout the world. So a 'seaworthy' boat is not just in design, but in the actual boat.

When you buy a house you look at the major components: Roof, foundation, heating, plumbing, electric. Decor and accessories can be infinitely added on, removed or exchanged. Generally people do not buy a house with intention of redesigning the foundation or roof. Look at the boat itself. Construction, rigging, engine, electric, etc. The major components and if they fit your needs for desired use.

My two kopeks.

[Julie Mor]

Originally Posted by Jon Eisberg

Sorry, but as others have already hinted, it seems you may be 'over-thinking' this whole thing, just a bit...

:-))

What do you ultimately plan to do with this boat, anyway? In my observation over the years, many who seem to obsess the most over their choice of a boat, and then fitting it out for 'voyaging', wind up motoring down the ICW, whereupon they sit and wait for a flat calm day to motor across the Stream to Bimini, or West End...

:-))

seriously, what do you realistically envision doing with your boat?

As I said a couple of times in this thread, this isn't about me or needing help with my purchase. I know what I want. I was curious how others went about deciding if the boat they planned to buy fit their needs. I think I explained that the term "seaworthy" was very subjective and completely open to interpretation. I was just curious what "tools" one used to satisfy their curiosity. I only suggested one possibility that made sense to me.

As for overthinking - it's the dead of winter. I'm sitting on an egg waiting for it to hatch. And I'm trying to keep my mind from turning to mush until it does.

[moseriw]

Originally Posted by Polux

Some puzzling comments, particularly the ones above. A battery bank, specially if it is a large one for offshore sailing is a very heavy piece of equipment and should be put as low as possible to lower CG.

There are no meaningful issues in what concerns the loss of keels on cruising boats with fin keels. A boat with a full keel will be slower with an increased passage time and therefore subjected to more risks. Sometimes this is discarded as being just a little and of no importance but a long keel boat took on the last ARC a week more than the average of cruising boats and most that have them took 3 or 4 days more.

A middle cockpit boat can give you a false sense of safety but in fact what it does (talking about boats with less than 50ft), besides giving you an aft king berth, is raising the CG, diminishing generally the boat storage capacity.
They also put the crew higher and more away from the boat CB on a position where they would be subject to more lateral movement that would increase sea motion, specially the less comfortable one (roll).

A v shaped bow is great for motorboats or cats that sail without heel. The more uncomfortable motion on a boat is upwind with waves and on that sailing position the boat is sailing with heel and depending on the form of a bow a V shaped one can increase pounding since what was a an inclined wall is now an almost flat one. Bow design as the all boat design is a complicated matter and simplistic generalizations will not make sense.

Yes I was talking about my V47 and I had the pleasure to sail her about 2 days with 50 knots and up to 63 knots in gusts and waves up to 8 meters. Wind from quarter and before with waves 4 meter F5-6 right on the nose under engine. Right on the nose costs a lot of speed letting her climb up the waves but due to the V Bow we did not get any water on deck.

With 50-63knots she did not roll and I could not feel and see any difference between a stern cockpit and the middle cockpit. With 50knots we had to reef the mainsail to 3 and I had only one man out at the mainmast doing it.

About batteries:
I have a rack of 4 225Ah one above the other right in the middle of the
boat so if I'am making water I can disconnect each battery very quick to make sure that I have electricity even with 3 ft of water above the bilge
All cables are made to fit this height. Fact if I have 3 ft of water in the boat It's time to leave her - and I still will have electricity.

OK the boat has 20 metric tons and I do not even feel the lack of this 200 kgs in the bilge.

About the long and finn keel. All arguments against are correct but I have a cruiser and I expect 7-8 knots and doing it above 12-14knots that's enough for me. And I will never have a problem to loose a keel (because I do not have a finn keel) or a rudder because the long keel protects it.

I'v seen the arguments against (Yes she is not going back without a bowthruster - no chance at all) So I believ in this way to secure the boat und crew and other may have other ways.

Sticking on the above I have had situations where I could test the configuration and it was OK.

[DefinitelyMe]

I disagree wholeheartedly that races should be used as the basis for determining whether a boat is seaworthy. I sailed in the 2014 Newport-Bermuda race most recently in a boat that i would consider to be of average seaworthiness in the fleet, a corby 41. We were confident that we could handle any weather conditions we were likely to encounter bar a hurricane. And we could have. As it turned out it was a very, very light-air race. Still, we broke 3 spinnaker halyards, the strop on the end of our pole and put, I'd say, about $4000 worth of wear into the rest of the gear.

A lot of the boats doing these kinds of races are of a similar ilk. Yes, they can handle it, but would you want to cruise them? Hell no! Aside from the breakages, specialist parts, lack of amenities, they're just bloody uncomfortable in a seaway - like living inside a drum!

Look at the most recent route-du-rhum. 17 of 91 boats abandoned the race because of too much wind (35 knot gusts). At least 2 that i heard of had their keels fall off and one was dismasted on the very first day! Dramatic start to Route du Rhum with a dismasting and a cargo ship collision | ybw

OK, so, within the parameters in the thread, three things stick out as being of particular importance in my view:

1) Is the keel likely to fall off?
2) Is the rudder likely to fall off?
3) Is the mast likely to stay sticking upward?

Also:
4) Is the hull likely to stay watertight and not shake itself to pieces?

[DefinitelyMe]

I may be a bit dated in my beliefs, but i'd say the closer you are to the top of this sequence of hull designs, the more seaworthy the boat is likely to be, and vice versa :-)

[moseriw]

Originally Posted by DefinitelyMe

I may be a bit dated in my beliefs, but i'd say the closer you are to the top of this sequence of hull designs, the more seaworthy the boat is likely to be, and vice versa :-)

Yr first image is a bit to much. Look at this - this is how they build ships between the 15th and 20th century and they did know what to do it was the time of the sailors and their mean interrest was safety...

And mention! DefinitelyMe says it and his 36 has got a Skeg and a shorter longkeel so I am sure he knows what he is talking about. And I had the proof as the V47 went trought the F11 waves like a swan without anything that was frightening.