How Close . . .

[YourOldNemesis]

<biting tongue>

[capngeo]

You guys sound like my Multi-hull buddy!

We weren't racing, but I wanted to sail a cut between two islands, he said it was impossible because there wasn't enough width to tack to get the needed heading. He proceeded South to loop around Sunset Key and come up the ship channel, I cut between the islands..... without tacking!

The tide was slack. I only made about 2 kts.... BUT traveled one less mile than he did to our destination; thus getting there first and winning the "race". He claims it is impossible to sail that heading and I cheated by running the the Diesel.

I have no fancy electronic wind gizmos, but if I turn into the wind so it runs right down the lubber line, the sails luff and do nothing... 10-15 degrees (by compass heading) either way and she's sailing again..... not fast at all, but moving nonetheless. If I furl the Genny to approximate a working Jib, I get nothing. To the purists, I should have noted "apparent wind".... sorry.

I've never been a technical sailor by any means, and can care less about getting the last possible 1/10Kt (hell, I haven't even cleaned the bottom in 6 months!)... If I want to go fast, I take out a power boat. I do like to see just how much I can get along without the aux Diesel. I'm even one of those goofy ID10TS who try to sail all the way into my slip.... I will admit that the Diesel is running in neutral when I do that "just in case"

[YourOldNemesis]

There are a number of possibilities here:

1) You were fore-reaching
2) You were mis-reading your instruments
3) You're in the wrong job, should jack it all in and start selling your hull-design, rig setup and sail trimming skills to the highest paying team in the America's cup.

[Bash]

Originally Posted by capngeo

You guys sound like my Multi-hull buddy!

Yes, and it sounds as if your buddy won the argument. I think this is the closest this forum has ever been to consensus: 15 degrees apparent is not within the working range of a 150% genoa.

[Ex-Calif]

Originally Posted by capngeo

I have no fancy electronic wind gizmos, but if I turn into the wind so it runs right down the lubber line, the sails luff and do nothing... 10-15 degrees (by compass heading) either way and she's sailing again..... not fast at all, but moving nonetheless. If I furl the Genny to approximate a working Jib, I get nothing. To the purists, I should have noted "apparent wind".... sorry.

Your sails are luffing way before the lubber line. Unless you specify how you know you are head to wind and the compass calibration error we have to assume you are not truly head to wind to start and/or your compass is not calibrated.

No one wants to be confrontational but we're gonna need pics...

I know you don't have electronics but do you have a windex and a speed log? I am just not sure how you can be so sure of your numbers without some way to measure.

[Jim Cate]

Hmmm,

So this stellar performance was done with a dirty bottom, too??? I'll have to add my vote to the naysayers... that sound you hear is the BS alarm going off.

I don't mean that you are deliberately misleading us, but rather that somehow you are getting the wrong idea about your boats performance. Without a windpoint sort of instrument there is no way to measure your apparent wind angle with enough accuracy to substantiate your claims. Furthermore, there is the issue of leeway, which in extreme pinching conditions tends to become a big factor, especially with a dirty bottom/keel which tend to reduce the lift generated by the foils.

So, if you really want to get some more accurate idea of how this works, set your GPS (surely you have a GPS) to show your course over the ground. Sail at your supposed 10 degrees of apparent wind and note your course made good. Tack, and repeat the experiment. subtract the smaller CMG from the larger one. That is your tacking angle. Divide that number by two -- that is how close your actual course is to the true wind. It will be a lot more than 10 degrees!

If it turns out to really be 10 degrees, then the next time we are anchored near to each other you can walk across the water to my boat and I'll shout you a beer or two!

Cheers,

Jim

[Blue Stocking]

The highest pointing boats I have ever sailed on, for 12 yrs, was the Tornado catamaran.
We sailed with IOD,Etchels,505,J24,Soling, and out-pointed them all.

[YourOldNemesis]

Originally Posted by Blue Stocking

The highest pointing boats I have ever sailed on, for 12 yrs, was the Tornado catamaran.
We sailed with IOD,Etchels,505,J24,Soling, and out-pointed them all.

Well done... what's your point?

[capngeo]

OK I know I asked for this..... But I'm not a troll and don't BS on purpose. I didn't start this thread to be attacked or be labeled a bulls***er! I know there are others here with more time on the water than I, especially on sailboats. The reason I started the thread, was to see if anyone else observed a boat with similar ability, as THIS boat heads upwind better than any other I have ever sailed.

I have sailed a LOT of different boats, and this Cal is new to me. I bought it last year, and other than my trip from Venice to Key West last October I've only sailed her on day trips. My point is that THIS boat points up better than any other I've ever sailed. The friend who made the passage down from Venice has been sailing for 40 years and even HE commented that the CAL28 pointed up better than any boat he ever sailed.

Do I have hard data to back it up? NO! I do have a lot of time on the water and have run boats (sail and power) all over the Eastern seaboard. My "guesstimates" of tide, wind, heading are usually pretty close. I'm sure any of you with similar time on the water, have a similar accuracy in your best guess.


Below is a screenshot of my track from my iPhone running Navionics... The track in question is the line between the two islands. Our direction was from left to right across the screen. It is in a North up orientation. At the moment my iPhone is the only instrument I have for navigation other than my laptop that was not aboard and my un-swung compass. My compass is within 10 degrees of the GPS and most times within 5.... I can't steer any better than that, so good enough for me. That said, in small heading changes under 45 degrees, the compass might not give me a precise heading but I believe the angular difference in headings is pretty accurate.

Here is the NWS almanac data for winds in KW (It is data from the 20th, not the 19th, as it didn't go back that far.... but the winds were the same)

11:53 E 13 G 17 10.00 Partly Cloudy SCT037 85 70 61% 29.96 1014.4

[senormechanico]

All I see is a couple of 100 degree tacks.
Wind direction, true, magnetic? Deviation in the area?
Compass swung lately?
Lotsa variables here, but the pic doesn't lie to me.

[Captain Bill]

Do you recall if you were on a port or starboard tack when you went between the Islands? A NWS report of winds from the east does not mean exactly 090. If the winds were from 075 and you were going 100 you would have been at least 25 off the wind, maybe more.

[delmarrey]

And any time one passes thru land masses (Islands) the wind will change. You should try sailing the San Juan Islands. You'll tack and then have to tack again just to go the same direction.

[Captain Bill]

I found a web page that shows the Wind on the 19th as being from the NE (045+_) at the 11:53 observation on weather underground.
History : Weather Underground
As you were heading south of east you were probably not as close to the wind as you thought. The course on your Ipod would certainly be consistant with a NE wind and a port tack. Note that the polar diagram presented does not go to 0 at 30 degrees apparent but you will slow down a lot.

[MarkJ]

I have an interesting error in my Raymarine wind sensor. It really points where it wants to point and its becoming a little tedious, especially in the last week while I have been comeing dead downwind goosewinging. Because of my swept back spreaders the main will luff at onle a few degrees off dead downwind. so that damn indicator needs to be spot on.
As for upwind: It will show me, say 30 degrees off the wind, i'll tack through 100 degrees and it will show me 30 degrees off the wind. Where did the other 40 degrees go?

I have other stuff to thrown money at, but it gets to be a pain when I'm worried about gybing while I'm meant to be sleepin'!

So perhaps if the boat is pointing well, and there is a similar error as mine then your instruments may well show you are just a few degrees off the wind.

I think Solings or Etchels are the highest pointing boats - or is it the old Dragons - and I thought they were about 28 degrees to the wind in optimum conditions.

But, I don't think you're bullshitting, Capngeo, just think it might be a variety of things compounding to make it look like it's at 10 degs.





Mark

[Captain Bill]

Originally Posted by MarkJ

I have an interesting error in my Raymarine wind sensor. It really points where it wants to point and its becoming a little tedious, especially in the last week while I have been comeing dead downwind goosewinging. Because of my swept back spreaders the main will luff at onle a few degrees off dead downwind. so that damn indicator needs to be spot on.
As for upwind: It will show me, say 30 degrees off the wind, i'll tack through 100 degrees and it will show me 30 degrees off the wind. Where did the other 40 degrees go?

I have other stuff to thrown money at, but it gets to be a pain when I'm worried about gybing while I'm meant to be sleepin'!

So perhaps if the boat is pointing well, and there is a similar error as mine then your instruments may well show you are just a few degrees off the wind.

I think Solings or Etchels are the highest pointing boats - or is it the old Dragons - and I thought they were about 28 degrees to the wind in optimum conditions.

But, I don't think you're bullshitting, Capngeo, just think it might be a variety of things compounding to make it look like it's at 10 degs.





Mark

Mark when going dead down wind the forces acting on the wind vane are reduced and any mast motion will induce wind direction changes. So if there's any sea running at all you are likely to see the wind direction indicator going all over the place.

If you are tacking through 100 degrees based on your GPS course and loosing 40 degrees apparent, you should probably look at your wake. Your probably loosing 20 degrees on each side to leeway. My boat's best tack angle, that is the angle at which I can tack and not loose boat speed, is about 100 degrees true according to the GPS, but my compass indicates less than 80. The difference is lost to leeway.