Horrible Guests, Terrible Crew

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by blakeonline

You had a good opportunity to take him out to international waters and let him swim where he wanted to go eh....

My wife and I disgust it.

[thruska]

Originally Posted by gaucho

I agree. But it's a conversation on expectations, not a contract. I think it's very different. Re-read how many peeps suggested a contract. I manage my friendships like that. It has helped me still keep people around who did not meet MY expectations, but are still nice people to have around. I adapted MY expectations to their "personalities", and CHOSE to still befriend them. I don't know, maybe Im just getting old, and trying to be more inclusive. Who knows ...

I notice varied opinion regarding the “conversation on expectations “.
I have not seen and comment on common sense nor common courtesy.
I’m sure we have numerous connotations of those about to be presented.
Does anyone remember the list mom or dad put on the refrigerator ? for everyone, not just the teenager.
Something like....
You make a mess, you clean it.
You break it , you fix it.
...I think you get the idea....
And to the inexperienced youngsters or mouthy one who says ah you don’t know anything? Leave now while you still know everything....
Conversations tend to be forgotten. Conversations with a list of expectations with initials scribbled after acknowledgement of each subject makes absolute sense.
I’ve worked in social rehabilitation facilities, and have wiped arses, but I’ll not be wiping anyone’s whose perfectly capable of wiping their own !
Anyone on my boat, in my house, or vehicle whom possesses no common sense or courtesy will get appropriately trained at no charge.
As for pedo , keel haul. End of issue waste of skin

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by blakeonline

You had a good opportunity to take him out to international waters and let him swim where he wanted to go eh....

Blake,

You actually brought up a good point; it became virtually impossible to get this guy off our crew list when neither country Croatia or Montenegro wanted him and Interpol was aware of him being on our boat.

When I returned to the Croatia customs dock, I was met at the entrance door by three police where they took our guest to their office. They knew we were coming. When I tried to bring his bags ashore to him, I was instructed “no, no, you and him are not staying.... put those back.” Which is when I invited a police officer onboard to see firsthand the status of our batteries... which stunk like burt acid.

Everyone seemed to know where he was, and nobody wanted him including us.

[Jd1]

OK, I know I will get burned for this but I just can't help speaking out .....


There are many different ways of becoming a sex offender. Many are real bad situations but some are more or less technicalities - Think of an 18 year old going out with a 17 year old (don't quate me on ages and they may vary in different regions). You could get sexual offender status for something like that which is totally wrong IMHO. Anyway, I think it is wrong to suggest letting the guy swim for it from 3 miles out until you actually know what the circumstances of his conviction were.


Having gotten that off my chest, I can pretty much guarantee that I would never take anybody but close family members across any border. The risk is just too high these days.


I would also work up slowly to inviting guest or crew - no way would I go from a casual acquaintance (or less) to spending a week trapped on a boat with someone.
I should add that applies to me as a boat owner or me acting as crew on someone else's boat.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by Jd1

OK, I know I will get burned for this but I just can't help speaking out .....


There are many different ways of becoming a sex offender. Many are real bad situations but some are more or less technicalities - Think of an 18 year old going out with a 17 year old (don't quate me on ages and they may vary in different regions). You could get sexual offender status for something like that which is totally wrong IMHO. Anyway, I think it is wrong to suggest letting the guy swim for it from 3 miles out until you actually know what the circumstances of his conviction were.


Having gotten that off my chest, I can pretty much guarantee that I would never take anybody but close family members across any border. The risk is just too high these days.


I would also work up slowly to inviting guest or crew - no way would I go from a casual acquaintance (or less) to spending a week trapped on a boat with someone.
I should add that applies to me as a boat owner or me acting as crew on someone else's boat.

I don't think you should get burned for that. It is a valid statement. How many high school sweethearts can anyone recall were he/she became of legal age before the other. Probably comes down to if the parents like them, right or wrong. It is probably a small % however.

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by rjash6666

>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


3 We take turns in keeping the heads clean>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I took this to mean that the easiest way to do this is continue to clean up after yourselves, all the time. That way no one else ever has to clean up a mess made by somebody else.

[PortClydeMe]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

My wife and I disgust it.

What? I'm a bit confused. Sorry.

You and your wife discussed it?
You and your wife are disgusted?

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by PortClydeMe

What? I'm a bit confused. Sorry.

You and your wife discussed it?
You and your wife are disgusted?

No demerits for spelling.

[senormechanico]

Originally Posted by PortClydeMe

What? I'm a bit confused. Sorry.

You and your wife discussed it?
You and your wife are disgusted?

At least he didn't "loose" control and put the guy in the "dingy".

[sailorboy1]

Moral of story, get strangers for crew

I guess

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Jd1

OK, I know I will get burned for this but I just can't help speaking out .....


There are many different ways of becoming a sex offender. Many are real bad situations but some are more or less technicalities - Think of an 18 year old going out with a 17 year old (don't quate me on ages and they may vary in different regions). You could get sexual offender status for something like that which is totally wrong IMHO. Anyway, I think it is wrong to suggest letting the guy swim for it from 3 miles out until you actually know what the circumstances of his conviction were.


Having gotten that off my chest, I can pretty much guarantee that I would never take anybody but close family members across any border. The risk is just too high these days.


I would also work up slowly to inviting guest or crew - no way would I go from a casual acquaintance (or less) to spending a week trapped on a boat with someone.
I should add that applies to me as a boat owner or me acting as crew on someone else's boat.

Letting him swim was a joke brought up by another post, of course we wouldn’t let him swim... Interpol knew he was on our boat. The guest wasn’t guilty of peeing in a public park or dating a 17 year old when he was 18... he pleaded no contest and admitted to filling up his personal computer with child porn.

[Island Time O25]

Early on, when the sailing bug bit me, the guy who introduced me to it told me that getting a good and reliable crew will be one of the biggest obstacles for any long range plans other than an occasional overnight. That was 20+ years ago and still holds true to me.

In the ensuing years I got lucky in that I met a few boating buddies who became very good friends. Unfortunately, as years went on they moved across the country and I have not been doing those week long trips we used to do on each others boats. But at least now I can visit them at three other corners of US and get some sailing done there. ))

[jtsailjt]

Wow, what a story and what a thread! I met Ken and his wife as they were enroute to Nova Scotia and had no idea that things went so downhill for him in regards to crew shortly after. Both my wife (another RN) and I thoroughly enjoyed spending a little time (unfortunately not underway) with Ken and his wife and wished we could spend more. His boat is amazing and Ken is obviously already very comfortable owning and sailing it and has already become well acquainted with the systems onboard but he’ll never stop wanting to learn more. I have no doubt at all that both he and his Oyster are very far from “unsafe and unseaworthy!” This is truly a case of very bad luck that could happen to anyone. Even a written contract won’t prevent cheapskate boors from finding a way to become a PIA aboard a boat, given enough opportunity.

It’s sort of funny how the Internet distorts our perceptions of people to varying degrees. My first impression of Ken when I first signed up for CF was that he could be sort of brusque, but after reading very many of his posts I gradually began to notice that he almost always turned out to be right and his opinions were based on his own extensive experience and not on something he googled or heard second hand so I started to really pay attention to his contributions and enjoyed them. Now, after meeting him in person and seeing him aboard his boat, I realize that he’s about the furthest thing from “brusque” and if anything, he tends to understate his experience until you sort of draw it out of him. He’s just very matter of fact and practical and competent and soft spoken and polite, not at all drawn to melodrama of any sort, and has a nice quiet sense of humor. I’ve known quite a few sailors (crew and captains) over the years and can’t think of many who I’d rather sail with or just hang out with aboard a boat. I’m not trying to start a Kenomac fan club or ingratiate myself to him but after reading this thread was just struck that such intelligent people and nice people as I know he and his wife are could be ambushed by such ungrateful and manipulative crew. Amazing! I won’t even comment on the sex offender! [emoji20]

I think asking the waiter or waitress to split the bill is always a good policy. My wife and I have eating/drinking (not teetotalers but never drunk, usually limit ourselves to one or at most two drinks in a day) habits that are similar to Ken and his wife but still, why not just separate the bill so each pays his own way? If I feel like indulging myself in a very expensive meal while someone else gets a salad I don’t want to have to worry about what they may think of paying for my “excess” and vice-versa.

If I were to crew on Kens boat I wouldn’t be offended if he asked me to read and agree to a list of his expectations. I’m sure I’d find them to be very reasonable and I have no fear that if I had any question about anything on that list we could have a good discussion to further clarify. I’ve found that differing expectations with crew have occasionally become an issue on my own boat. Usually it’s not over a big thing and I’ve straightened it out but many times I’ve kicked myself because I’d “assumed” so had not bothered briefing the crew member on every detail so it was understandable that they had made different assumptions. It’s tough to think of everything when crew first comes aboard so I think it’s a great idea when it’s for more than just a daysail to have a list of issues and your expectations written down ahead of time for the crew member to read and agree to. For someone like Ken, I’m sure I’d do a whole lot of head nodding as I read through his crew agreement but even though we tend to think similarly, there might be an expectation that he had that I hadn’t considered or I felt needed more clarification or that I even disagreed with. By having a prepared list we could have any necessary discussions at the dock so that by the time we got underway we’d both know we were on just the same page on every major issue. I can’t see any downside to it, great idea! I’m going to start compiling a written briefing/list of mutual expectations for my boat.

Again, my sympathy to Ken and his wife. You certainly don’t deserve it, but when you think about all the years and sea miles and all the crew you’ve had aboard, the odds were bound to catch up with you eventually. Now, hopefully you can go another 25 years or so without any more negative crew surprises!

[P3sailor]

While I don't own a boat, I can fully appreciate Kenomac's experience. I'm sure there are many of us who've had similar experiences outside the sailing world. One that comes to mind are those who agree with donating to the "kitty" suddenly change from beer and burgers to single malt scotch and steak. Can't tell you how many times I've seen that happen and by those you'd least expect to do so.
On the other hand this is one of those experiences that could go both ways, i.e., good unsuspecting crew, bad skipper or owner! I've wasted thousands of dollars getting to a vessel only to discover a totally incompetent owner/skipper or the vessel was in terrible condition. Just one of those things that have to be chalked up as experience and move on.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by P3sailor

While I don't own a boat, I can fully appreciate Kenomac's experience. I'm sure there are many of us who've had similar experiences outside the sailing world. One that comes to mind are those who agree with donating to the "kitty" suddenly change from beer and burgers to single malt scotch and steak. Can't tell you how many times I've seen that happen and by those you'd least expect to do so.
On the other hand this is one of those experiences that could go both ways, i.e., good unsuspecting crew, bad skipper or owner! I've wasted thousands of dollars getting to a vessel only to discover a totally incompetent owner/skipper or the vessel was in terrible condition. Just one of those things that have to be chalked up as experience and move on.

Recent vintage, low mileage Oyster 62 following a two month shake down cruise, all systems working except for a minor electrical glitch which was sorted out in a few hours, new sails, complete with a diesel mechanic and electrician onboard for the crossing declared to be “unseaworthy and unsafe?” Nope, I don’t think so... the guy was just looking for an excuse to bail out.