Horrible Guests, Terrible Crew

[GaryBode]

I call BS.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Recent vintage, low mileage Oyster 62 following a two month shake down cruise, all systems working except for a minor electrical glitch which was sorted out in a few hours, new sails, complete with a diesel mechanic and electrician onboard for the crossing declared to be “unseaworthy and unsafe?” Nope, I don’t think so... the guy was just looking for an excuse to bail out.

We really need a "Like" button

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by GaryBode

I call BS.

Yes, we did endure lots of BS, an unbelievable amount of unexpected BS. Mountains of it in fact.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by GaryBode

I call BS.

You are "new" right ?
Very, very new

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Yes, we did endure lots of BS, an unbelievable amount of unexpected BS. Mountains of it in fact.

Let it roll off your back. I've had a leach or two, I guess you just learn from experience along with letting the BS comment do likewise.

[P3sailor]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Recent vintage, low mileage Oyster 62 following a two month shake down cruise, all systems working except for a minor electrical glitch which was sorted out in a few hours, new sails, complete with a diesel mechanic and electrician onboard for the crossing declared to be “unseaworthy and unsafe?” Nope, I don’t think so... the guy was just looking for an excuse to bail out.

Maybe he bailed after hearing about the keel issues some Oysters have suffered! One thing I dislike is when someone is dishonest about his/her experience and the condition of the vessel! This is not the case with everyone, just a few, and they are out there just like bad crewmembers. I was just trying to give some examples of my experiences. I try to join a vessel with an open mind, help out, earn my keep, be a contributor, and make it a great, memorable experience. But again, dishonesty is a deal breaker in my book.
Not all of us are like your guests!!

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

Wow, what a story and what a thread! I met Ken and his wife as they were enroute to Nova Scotia and had no idea that things went so downhill for him in regards to crew shortly after. Both my wife (another RN) and I thoroughly enjoyed spending a little time (unfortunately not underway) with Ken and his wife and wished we could spend more. His boat is amazing and Ken is obviously already very comfortable owning and sailing it and has already become well acquainted with the systems onboard but he’ll never stop wanting to learn more. I have no doubt at all that both he and his Oyster are very far from “unsafe and unseaworthy!” This is truly a case of very bad luck that could happen to anyone. Even a written contract won’t prevent cheapskate boors from finding a way to become a PIA aboard a boat, given enough opportunity.

It’s sort of funny how the Internet distorts our perceptions of people to varying degrees. My first impression of Ken when I first signed up for CF was that he could be sort of brusque, but after reading very many of his posts I gradually began to notice that he almost always turned out to be right and his opinions were based on his own extensive experience and not on something he googled or heard second hand so I started to really pay attention to his contributions and enjoyed them. Now, after meeting him in person and seeing him aboard his boat, I realize that he’s about the furthest thing from “brusque” and if anything, he tends to understate his experience until you sort of draw it out of him. He’s just very matter of fact and practical and competent and soft spoken and polite, not at all drawn to melodrama of any sort, and has a nice quiet sense of humor. I’ve known quite a few sailors (crew and captains) over the years and can’t think of many who I’d rather sail with or just hang out with aboard a boat. I’m not trying to start a Kenomac fan club or ingratiate myself to him but after reading this thread was just struck that such intelligent people and nice people as I know he and his wife are could be ambushed by such ungrateful and manipulative crew. Amazing! I won’t even comment on the sex offender! [emoji20]

I think asking the waiter or waitress to split the bill is always a good policy. My wife and I have eating/drinking (not teetotalers but never drunk, usually limit ourselves to one or at most two drinks in a day) habits that are similar to Ken and his wife but still, why not just separate the bill so each pays his own way? If I feel like indulging myself in a very expensive meal while someone else gets a salad I don’t want to have to worry about what they may think of paying for my “excess” and vice-versa.

If I were to crew on Kens boat I wouldn’t be offended if he asked me to read and agree to a list of his expectations. I’m sure I’d find them to be very reasonable and I have no fear that if I had any question about anything on that list we could have a good discussion to further clarify. I’ve found that differing expectations with crew have occasionally become an issue on my own boat. Usually it’s not over a big thing and I’ve straightened it out but many times I’ve kicked myself because I’d “assumed” so had not bothered briefing the crew member on every detail so it was understandable that they had made different assumptions. It’s tough to think of everything when crew first comes aboard so I think it’s a great idea when it’s for more than just a daysail to have a list of issues and your expectations written down ahead of time for the crew member to read and agree to. For someone like Ken, I’m sure I’d do a whole lot of head nodding as I read through his crew agreement but even though we tend to think similarly, there might be an expectation that he had that I hadn’t considered or I felt needed more clarification or that I even disagreed with. By having a prepared list we could have any necessary discussions at the dock so that by the time we got underway we’d both know we were on just the same page on every major issue. I can’t see any downside to it, great idea! I’m going to start compiling a written briefing/list of mutual expectations for my boat.

Again, my sympathy to Ken and his wife. You certainly don’t deserve it, but when you think about all the years and sea miles and all the crew you’ve had aboard, the odds were bound to catch up with you eventually. Now, hopefully you can go another 25 years or so without any more negative crew surprises!

Thanks very much for the kind words. And just to let you know, the fellow that you met on our boat and at dinner wasn’t one of the people I was referring to. Greg is welcome back anytime and so are you and your wife.

We’ll do it again next May! I might even come up through Maine with Greg in early May taking my time to reach Halifax, then meet the crew there around the 15th, maybe you can join us?

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by P3sailor

Maybe he bailed after hearing about the keel issues some Oysters have suffered! One thing I dislike is when someone is dishonest about his/her experience and the condition of the vessel! This is not the case with everyone, just a few, and they are out there just like bad crewmembers. I was just trying to give some examples of my experiences. I try to join a vessel with an open mind, help out, earn my keep, be a contributor, and make it a great, memorable experience. But again, dishonesty is a deal breaker in my book.
Not all of us are like your guests!!

He just wanted an out for several reasons and used the minor electrical glitch as an excuse to jump ship and leave us hanging. He’d previously confided to one of my crew that he was “just along for the ride.”

Point of information: Only one 825 Oyster which was heavily modified during the company’s third ownership has ever lost a keel. Ours is a Matthews built Oyster from 2009 when the company was still owned by the original owner. None built during that era have had keel or structural issues.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Polux

That's a problem that increases with the size of the boat, I mean crew.

Regarding having people aboard I restrict that to family or very close friends.

I will not trust strangers or people that I don't know very well to crew with us and I doubt that I will need or want any crew, even for an Atlantic crossing. I would love to have my "kids" with me but that's just for the fun of it.

If you want to have people aboard it is better to chart your boat at least you know what to count regarding money and for what you say of your "friends" it would not be worse and maybe you even find some nice people willing to pay to sail in a boat.

Paolo,


We were supposed to get over to Greece to see you this year, it’s been too long since the last time. Hopefully, in 2019.

[Dooglas]

Originally Posted by P3sailor

While I don't own a boat, I can fully appreciate Kenomac's experience. I'm sure there are many of us who've had similar experiences outside the sailing world. One that comes to mind are those who agree with donating to the "kitty" suddenly change from beer and burgers to single malt scotch and steak. Can't tell you how many times I've seen that happen and by those you'd least expect to do so.
On the other hand this is one of those experiences that could go both ways, i.e., good unsuspecting crew, bad skipper or owner! I've wasted thousands of dollars getting to a vessel only to discover a totally incompetent owner/skipper or the vessel was in terrible condition. Just one of those things that have to be chalked up as experience and move on.

Of course, it can. And the same advice goes both ways. Either you know a person or couple very well from recent past boating experiences and would be pleased to have them aboard your boat OR you aboard theirs - or you don't have that level of experience with one another. In that case, the answer is a short "trial" trip of 3 days or so to check out compatibility. You can have a bad experience as crew/guest just as you can have a bad experience as owner/skipper. Why would anyone sign up for 3 weeks of possible extended misery?

[atlantical]

I find that if you don't know the people really well, anything can happen, I have had nightmare crews, had one guy that spent his entire time trying to prove he knew more than me, anything I said, he contradicted, he asked if I would get sea sick, I said I didn't get sea sick, we hit some slightly bouncy weather, and he spent his time chucking everything up, while I worked on the engine, then when it was all over, he said to me "I was really impressed that you didn't get sea sick" he tried to make a vhf call on a single side band radio, I told him he couldn't do that, he said "oh, i have set this to the VHF channel sixteen frequency, 156.8 I said great, genius work, except, thats Kilo hertz, you need mega hertz, this caused an argument that went on and on, until i got the book for the radio and told him to show me where it had a range of 156 mega hertz, he messed up every job, when he left he went to another boat, somehow took charge of it, and blew up there generator, caused a lot of damage.

I gave a delivery job to another guy, who sounded great, I actually had someone to do the delivery, but this guy sounded so good, that I dropped the first guy, and gave it to this guy, he sounded great, could do anything, and my boat was going to be re built by the time it was delivered, I was going too, when I met the guy he was so positive, full of all the things he was going to do, but none of them got done, I was paying this guy quite a lot, and after the first couple of days he just started to sit around staring into space, I was thinking why am I paying this guy, I am doing everything myself, I told him at one point to put some whippings in the ropes as they were starting to fray, he told me no point, they would just come out, I told him to put the radar reflector up, he told me no point, they don't work, at the first marina, I told him I would go and sort out the marina and pay them, he could get the shore power connected, I came back walked aboard, he was sitting in the dark, just staring into space, never even looked at me, I said "i said, what happened to the shore power" dose not work came the answer, I said worked in the last marina didn't it, he said dosent work now, I threw the switch, and all the lights in the cabin came on, he connected the cable, and didn't switch it on, the guy was clinically depressed, he used a huge amount of energy to get the job, and spend the first couple of days trying to do it, and he ended up so exhausted he was barely able to stay awake, he had gotten a third of the money out of me, but it was clear he couldn't do the job, he couldn't even make himself some food, he just slept where he sat, in his clothes, slept in the cockpit with the auto pilot on, stopped talking, he got really bad, and I told him he needed to go, that was the first time in a week he said anything, and that was "are you paying me the rest of my money" I told him out of good will, I was going to give him another small payment, he said "i am going to arrest your boat" I said good, now can you get going, he stole all the charts and my stainless steel mug. Never again heard from him,

[Kenomac]

When I had the alcoholic onboard for two weeks five years ago, I decided what I should have done at the first sign of trouble, was to give him €20 to go buy himself some Scotch, then leave his stuff on the dock and just take off since his airfare was pre-paid by me. But unfortunately, I kept him aboard and had nothing but problems from the useless turd for the next eight days.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

When I had the alcoholic onboard for two weeks five years ago, I decided what I should have done at the first sign of trouble, was to give him €20 to go buy himself some Scotch, then leave his stuff on the dock and just take off since his airfare was pre-paid by me. But unfortunately, I kept him aboard and had nothing but problems from the useless turd for the next eight days.

Sounds like you have a problem getting a crew. Two users that wouldn't contribute, a sex offender and a drunk.

[captprogreso]

I really think sailboat are like bad times, there is were yours friends really shines up.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Cadence

Sounds like you have a problem getting a crew. Two users that wouldn't contribute, a sex offender and a drunk.

Generally no, not a problem at all, tomorrow my good friend Eugenio will show up for our sail back to Italy.

Remember, we’ve been doing this for eight years with many, many successes behind us and the last three were vetted as well as possible. I worked side by side with the sex offender for five years, thirty five years ago, he was our general manager for our music company. His problems with health issues and pornography began 10 years ago.

It was unknown the guy from five years ago was a drunk, he was the boat broker who sold us our Hunter 450, claimed he did deliveries.