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Old 04-11-2017, 22:54   #1
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Help me sort this out?

Here is the situation:

There is a boat that is rumored to be Bruce Farr's boat that is approximately 44 foot. it's interior is pretty much stripped except part of the galley is still there. One of the interesting things about this boat is the engine sits near the mast. It is a cutter rig. The boat is rumored to have won the Trans Pac in its class back in the late 70's or early 80's. It has a partially open stern with a big destroyer wheel. Massive deck hatches that are heavy duty. The gear on this boat is high level racing gear ...but maybe 10 years old when it was decommissioned as a racer. I saw this boat out of the water as she was having her bottom redone. Fin with deep keel.

There is so much that could be done with this fine boat. She is solid build and quite lovely. Her old teak decks need to go bye bye. She has no interior what so ever. She can be had pretty cheaply....maybe mid 20k

What I would like to do is to turn her into a good performance cruiser if I decided to swallow the insanity pill/ divorce pill....(no my wife likes the boat also and sees her potential)

1. She currently has a zillion racing sails. All hanked on....I would want a roller furling and even possibly a furling main. Just me and my sweetie...and I am in mid 60's and my wife is skinny Minnie.

So, question one, mates....how to go about getting my mind around what it will cost to get the rigging changed? Take pictures of the boat and go to a rigger and figure out what estimates they can come up with? Go to a sail loft? Can they take racing sails and recut them/alter them to lower performance sizes and more modest expectations?

2. Since the motor is at least 15-20 foot in front of the companionway how practical is it to build a good box around it for insulation and sound?

I love the balance of this boat. You can swing the destroyer wheel 6 inches port/starboard and watch the bow move accordingly. The engine is exactly where all motors should be if you like weight out of the ends. The motor is a Westerbeake (spelling) It is absolutely out in the open and would be the sweetest place to work on filters, belts, etc....observe issues building.

3. My wife and I like our pleasures and since this boat is a blank open page with almost nothing in it.....There is a v berth up in the bow. A very tiny bathroom...no shower. The main area has two benches. The boat is quite beamy. Behind the companion way are two large areas port and starboard that could be used for berths and storage.

I can't get my mind around what the costs would be to do the plumbing/electrical/carpentry/ and finish work. I have rebuilt three homes in the last 15 years from top to bottom. I am just now finishing up on a complete restoration of a 30 foot Sharpie. I have all the tools and none of the talent. He he....

Would it not be smart to pack the boat with all the stuff and sail it to southeast asia or Rio Dulce and let the talented workers do all the interior with me? I have serious delusions and this boat is making me nutts.

Okay...flame suit on....flame away....try to take a deep breath and be nice. I cry easily. I feel about this boat the same as I did about Penelope Cruz when I first saw her in Jamon Jamon.... I also think Javier Bartem is very insecure. I know he is intercepting all my letters to Penelope. Okay...so that is nutts....well, that is what this boat does to me.
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Old 04-11-2017, 23:24   #2
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Re: Help me sort this out?

Well I dunno about the rest but this bit is practical
Quote:
Originally Posted by alansmith View Post
Here is the situation:

........

2. Since the motor is at least 15-20 foot in front of the companionway how practical is it to build a good box around it for insulation and sound?

I love the balance of this boat. You can swing the destroyer wheel 6 inches port/starboard and watch the bow move accordingly. The engine is exactly where all motors should be if you like weight out of the ends. The motor is a Westerbeake (spelling) It is absolutely out in the open and would be the sweetest place to work on filters, belts, etc....observe issues building.
....
Assuming the new fitout allows for reasonable access either side of the new engine box. Presumably the shaft is well supported already and below sole height.

Noting better than good access to all four sides of an engine
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Old 04-11-2017, 23:37   #3
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Re: Help me sort this out?

Even if you can do this whole project yourself it will cost you many times what the boat will be worth. Unless you want a new career in boat building, find a nice used cruising boat and go sailing.
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Old 05-11-2017, 01:16   #4
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Re: Help me sort this out?

alansmith,

I'll talk about this with you, but I will not say what you should do. I would say, though, that turning that Farr into the world's coolest cruising boat could be a lot of fun--or a huge nightmare, and it all depends on what really turns you and your good lady on. What Terra Nova suggests is right for many people. And, even Thailand isn't cheap for labor; it's many ocean miles to get there; and it's a foreign culture where you may not know the ins and outs for some while. The costs will be huge. Even in SE Asia.

We knew some young people, still in their early 30's, that bought an old race boat in England, and sailed her out to New Zealand. They had turned it into a "cruising boat" by adding roller furling. And, if memory serves, they put teak treads on the companionway ladder (thanks, JIm for refreshing my memory), and they put a windlass on it.... That's all. And they had a wonderful time with her, and settled in NZ..

For you guys, and given your age (I'm 77), I think you might be better served by buying a similar sized, good sailing boat that is ready to go. CF member ewitts has one such for sale here right now. I used to know the boat. American made, one-off, Gary Mull design, aluminum construction. A nice light air boat.

If you look for special cruising boats, often built by shipwrights for their own use, from designers whose boats you like, there are a few out of the mainstream, but brilliant boats to be found, and maybe that is where you and your good lady could look to find a special boat that's ready to go--truly ready to go. This is how Jim and I found the boat I'm sitting in, writing to you now.

Or, Back to the Farr: put a double bed in there somewhere, where you can cut a hatch 5 ft in front of the head of the bed, to ventilate it. Ditch all but the best of the sails.

Plumb a line to the toilet area for a shower (put it in somewhere where you think it will be fun to slot into the community and work for a while.) Use a sun shower for now, in the cockpit. Jim and I did this for 18 yrs.....AND, we were younger then. But clean can happen.

Install the roller furler with a 135 on it.

Keep slab reefing for the main. For now.

Go sailing.

Find out from experience what more you want. Either buy that or get out, depending on how long it takes you.

You see, life is all an experiment and you and your good lady, just like me and Jim and everyone else, are the subjects of it. You choose, and try out stuff. Amuse others.

You might want to have a VHF and a depth sounder. And you might want to have internet capabilities, but other people on here will suggest you have so much stuff that by the time you install it, y'all won't go sailing.

If you can really KISS, the Farr might work; but if you are like most of the elders who want to cruise, buy a cruise ready boat, and don't spend your precious time that is left to you, building, but sailing--if that is what y'all really want to do.

If what you really want to do is save the Farr from destruction, well, that is a valid choice, too, and do that, with my blessing.

I regret, alan, that I do not know you better, for then I could have tuned my answer more personally toward you.

Ann







'
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Old 05-11-2017, 02:22   #5
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Re: Help me sort this out?

After you invest at least $100K worth of materials and parts into this boat and at least another $100K's worth of your own time (assuming you make an average living, more if your income is above average) or someone else's labor, you will have a lovely $50-70K boat. May be $80-100K boat if you're lucky.

So why not take that $100K you would be willing to spend on parts and materials and just buy 1980s 45 footer from someone who did all that work already and just can't sail anymore for whatever reason? 5 years later that boat may then be worth $50K but at least you haven't spent $200-250K restoring it.
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Old 05-11-2017, 03:16   #6
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Re: Help me sort this out?

Why not just buy a Farr 1220?
Reading your post it sounds like you are already in love with the yacht. Like my divorced mate, sometimes you cannot help what you fall in love with even if you know it is going to cost you money and heartache in the end!
Good luck and be prepared to spend way more than she is worth.
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Old 05-11-2017, 06:42   #7
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Re: Help me sort this out?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fore and Aft View Post
Why not just buy a Farr 1220?
Reading your post it sounds like you are already in love with the yacht. Like my divorced mate, sometimes you cannot help what you fall in love with even if you know it is going to cost you money and heartache in the end!
Good luck and be prepared to spend way more than she is worth.
Short digression, but can't resist : " --sometimes you cannot help what you fall in love with --", Who got the short end of the stick-- goin' in ??
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Old 05-11-2017, 07:42   #8
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Re: Help me sort this out?

I think JPA Cate is pretty spot on. Before you pile a bunch of money into it, get out on it. Live with it to learn it. Learn it to learn yourselves with it.

However, I can offer some clue on the monetary side as I have done exactly what you are considering as well as built a few boats from scratch.

Electrical: I just completed an entire electrical system on a similar sized cruising boat. It was $18k including inverter, solar, wind, electrical panels, fuses, fuse blocks, circuit breakers, labels, terminals, lugs, 820ah battery bank, mounting systems, etc. The boat had NO electrical system or wiring when we started. The $18k is for equipment only and does not include any labor. It took about 100 hours of labor.

Rigging: Save the large cost. Like JPA Cate said, stick with slab reefing main, and add your RF headsail. Sail makers can re-cut the existing sails if they are in good shape. Otherwise you could be looking at $15-50k upgrade with no greater usefulness than what you would already have.

Engine: Building a box and soundproofing it should cost less than $1000 in materials, unless you want to go elaborate.

Interior: There is no way to give accurate costs here. But BS1088 Meranti plywood is $35 to $130 per 4'x8' sheet depending on thickness. 3/8" (9mm) I priced out at $60 per sheet a couple months back. Cushions will vary based on your location. We just spent $3000 to do all the cushions/mattresses on a 45' cruiser and included the cockpit, and we shopped the materials really hard to get good pricing.

Your prices will vary based on your location and the deals you are able to find, but hopefully this gets you some idea.
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Old 05-11-2017, 08:24   #9
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Re: Help me sort this out?

I believe that it is a bad idea. The cost of rebuilding a flat out racer will be off the scale. And if it is a boat of the 70', it will be an IOR design, with all the bad tricks used to keep the IOR handicap low. Like distorsion and short the water length, keel ballast placed very high(lower stability and risk of capsizing).
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Old 05-11-2017, 08:47   #10
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Re: Help me sort this out?

Keeping the slab reefing and adding a Harken system might be a more satisfactory and less expensive option than replacing the mast.

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Old 05-11-2017, 09:06   #11
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Re: Help me sort this out?

As for an estimate of total cost: New custom construction costs about C$50 per pound displacement. A LIGHT 44 footer clocks in at something like 20K lbs, so the "sail away" price at the yard's dock would be appr. a million canuckibux. The hull construction costs are about 10 percent of that, i.e. C$100K. Engine installation about another C$25K and rigging and sails perhaps another C$200K. Thus for the "basics" you would get in the Farr boat, you can deduct about $325K from the current "new construction" price. Ergo C$675K is the residual which you could cut in half if you do ALL the labour of the "restoration" yourself. C$325 - C$375 is a reasonable first estimate of the aggregate cost of "stuff" you'd have to buy.

UNLESS you are a trained shipwright/furniture maker ranking high on the competence ladder, you'd then have a boat bearing unmistakable marks of having been "owner finished". That, on top of the boat being an odd-ball to start with, would make her very difficult to dispose of when the time comes - as it inevitably must. The disposal liabilities, both financial and ethical, would therefore impinge on you, and financial provision should be made for them as an intrinsic part of the cost of "conversion" of the derelict.

Not what you want to hear, I know. But life is hard - and then you croak :-)!

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Old 05-11-2017, 09:28   #12
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Re: Help me sort this out?

Alan - As a former owner and racer of a Farr 36 with the engine directly behind the mast, I recommend that you move ahead, with the following suggestions :
1) Get with a good sailmaker and discuss your options. Most Farr racers are over powered. It may be worthwhile to shorten the mast and the standing rigging.
2) Cutting down existing sails is always a good value.
3) Keep all of the racing sails, if you can. You can cut them down as needed.
4) Bruce Farr may be helpful in your build out plans. There may be a sistership that has already been outfitted for cruising.
5) I have the drawings for my Farr 36. They may be helpful in your adventure.
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Old 05-11-2017, 09:43   #13
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Re: Help me sort this out?

Well Mate, are you & yours ready for a long long period of time, watching your saving fill in a large space.
I'll tell you what, my being a retired shipwright, will return to the trades so as you can finance my later years. you on the other hand can
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Old 05-11-2017, 09:49   #14
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Re: Help me sort this out?

Out and out racers, esp. the 70'ies to 80'ies generation make poor cruisers. Those boats were built for 12 strong males to push them to limits on days maks weeks of the course. At times, these 12 brave young fat men were all at once hiking out on the rail.

Etc.

Otherwise the business part of it is done just like you do with a car or a house: build a spreadsheet / budget plan and see where it gets you. Google for some excellent layouts / breakdowns and examples of boat or car restoration. You will find very many.

If you come at a number below 100k, it may be a sign you made an error somewhere along the road. Re-calculate.

Cheers,
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Old 05-11-2017, 09:53   #15
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Re: Help me sort this out?

BTW If it helps: Bavaria 37 new rigging (complete) is EUR 30k. Mast, furler, wires, halyards, etc. etc.

This is the base Selden quality as specced by Bavaria. You may want a better grade if you go cruising big way one day.

Cheers,
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