Hello All

[BeOur3rd]

Originally Posted by brookiesailor

Ok let me answer this in another way. My husband and I are approaching this from the opposite angle as he has a career that is in the way of our cruising dreams. We have selected our boat but wait to purchase it until we have the time and money for upkeep and ability to use the boat. I would like that to be today but alas it is not. The boat we have chosen is 51 feet long, fiberglass. It has lots of storage spaces as we are looking to do extended cruising. The configuration is such that it can be operated by one person (as having a crew of two, someone may be sleeping). We are buying a used boat so a survey is needed to make sure we know the issues and can have them repaired before we start. There WILL be repairs and issues that need to be dealt with on a used boat. Best that you know them from the start and are not surprised by them when out sailing.

While we are waiting to get the boat we have done certain things to prepare. I have read "The Voyagers handbook" (excellent), "storm tactics" by Lin and Lary Paredy, taken a class in costal navigation and boat handling, bought another book on "The care and feeding of the crew" and finally a book on knots. I have yet to start the last two. I have twenty plus years of small boat sailing. My husband is a ships engineer and a mate. I want to make sure if anything happens to him I can take over the boat.

My suggestion is this. Buy the book on basic sailing and read up. Buy the book on coastal navigation AND a chart of the waters you intend on starting in and use that for practicing what you learn in the book. Buy a book on knots, a basic one is fine to start off, or even better yet there are some free online resources for knot tying, just get a length of line and get to work!

I know nothing about aluminum boats, just that my husband was against both those and steel. I didn't ask why, just narrowed my field so that is all I needed to know.


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what kind of boat are you buying? 51 foot?
and..its the same thing we are doing, we are both working our careers but will be abandoning them in at the most 2 years and moving on, we're fine with doing weekends and reading books. this is why i came here to ask for advice. didn't expect the advice to be so rude (you were the nice one) especially when i ALREADY said i was coming into this blind, it is the first research i do, and im not expecting to be in this state when i go out into waters, i expect ill have read and done most of it.

i also dont learn so well from books(i can but its much slower), im a hands on person, grew up on a farm and it was how it went. you fix it if you break it, you learn it because no one has the time to teach you.

[brookiesailor]

My budget is quite a bit bigger than yours but half of what it started off at. We are looking at a Passport Vista 515. It will most likely be a couple of years before we purchase the boat. I like you am a hands on learner and so for me the class worked well. It was half classroom study with charts and half boat time doing the actual charting. But there are other ways to get this experience. Befriend someone that has the experience and is willing to share it will you. Go to the docks and talk to people about what they like about their boats and what they would improve. Ask them if they will give you a tour of their boats. Look at a lot of boats before you settle on one that works for you and your life style. Decide where you want to go with your boat. Is it just going to be local or, the Bahamas, or beyond. The right boat will depend on what you are looking what to do with it. There are umpteen threads on here about choosing the right boat. Hit the search bar and start looking. You will notice a lot of conflicting opinions. People are unique and so are their beliefs and tastes in boats. Type in a search for your specific boat. If nothing comes up, Google search it. Their may be an owners club.




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[OldFrog75]

I don't think anyone here is being condescending or patronizing.



Let's assume for the moment you are not an idiot, you will study hard, get some instruction, and be a competent sailor before you buy your boat and hit the high seas and as a consequence, all you want/need to know right now is what kind of boat people like and why.

Again, not being condescending but there are countless threads in the archives on this forum about this boat vs. that boat. Another option you could consider is subscribing to a magazine like "Sailing" since they review boats and gear in every issue.

Personally, I have sailed Catalinas, Beneteaus, Jeanneaus, Hunters, Dufour, Hanse, Bavaria, Santana, and J-Boats ranging in size from 22'- 46'. I didn't hate any of them but if I could afford any boat on that list it would be a Hanse or Bavaria because I think they have better build quality, but then I also drive a German car so I might be subliminally prejudiced there.

I have no experience sailing boats with metal hulls and very limited experience sailing Catamarans so no help for you there, although Catamarans clearly have more cabin space than monohulls.

[farm sail]

We are trying to help you, but it is very obvious this was your first stop on the road to learning. The questions you asked and the way you asked them and the way you responded when you didn't get the answers you wanted are all pretty good indicators you are looking for short cuts. Had you spent 30 seconds with a Google search. Take " boating rules and regulations " for example. You would have been able to answer that question yourself. You say you want an aluminum boat but you don't express what you find good about aluminum instead you ask use if we agree with your choice and ask if it will be to hot to walk barefoot on?

If your not worried about anything else and only want help choosing a boat. You need to express more about what you are looking for and what you want to do. Of the boats you listed, are any of those aluminum cats? What was it about those boats that they made your list? Do you know their beam? Their displacement? Rig type, sloop/yawl/ketch/??? Did you choose them based on the builder or the designer?

Everything about your first hand full of posts here screams " I am new and in a hurry " a dangerous combination. You are not the first one to do that and not all of them made out so well at sea. There is a good reason many here have made the suggestions they have.

This forum is an amazing resource but you need to put in a bit of effort. Figure out the simple stuff, the very basics. Search the forum and the internet. Engage in other threads here that relate to what you yearn to learn. I think you will learn more and be received better.

Good luck

[Pelagic]

Welcome to CF BeOur3rd.

You seem to have gotten off to a rocky start, that is escalating to non productive responses from good people trying to help.

Your too general questions come across somewhat naive and simplistic, so forgive those who try to give you a basic primer of advice

I will answer as best I can in your OP below.... but suggest you break down your questions into specific threads, so you can research the many other threads here on same topics and get focussed replies... which is your goal.....

Originally Posted by BeOur3rd

so we've made a decision to find a boat that suits us and make it a live-aboard

background:
i am 37, i sailed when i was a boy, went to private school (before my parents lost all their money) and we had a sailing class, in grade 5 i believe. i loved it i was by far the best i was a natural and all my spare time was spent aboard my little 2 seater. later i was 13(we now live in a ghetto no longer a private school kid! hehe), spent my weekends at a friends cottage and i found an old 12 foot cedar strip behind an abandoned cottage and i refurbished it, and it was my pride and joy.

fast-forward, i'm now 37 and i've brought up about 10 times to the girlfriend that i want to live on a sailboat and wander all over the world as we please, she has never been receptive. but recent events made her interested and we've made plans to now buy a boat soon. (within 2 years once our finances are settled, maybe as soon as this coming April)

boundaries:
lets assume we don't have more than 250,000.00-USD to spend on boat and hopefully end up with a bit in the bank before leaving within that amount

goals:
now we ARE doing this, i however don't know half of what i should know so this is why i'm here, i need help.

what kind of boat do i need?

priorities:
i would prefer an aluminium boat (am i wrong in this? why?)

1....Alloy has its pros and cons as does every other material..... Why does it appeal to you? Budget wise Fiberglass will be cheaper with greater choices

i would prefer the largest boat i can manage with 2 of us as crew

2.....Many threads on this which boils down to cost and storm handling... I think 40 to 46 ft seems to be the most popular size choice for couples in your price bracket.

i have a penchant towards catamarans (anyone have preferences and why?)

3...That is a hot personal topic....price may be the deciding factor, but you need to sail both to decide.

i am a stingy bastard so i want a cheap boat to travel with(i mean this is our home after this point so we need something that's as cheap as possible)

4....The Holy Grail....Timing, negotiating skills and Luck will dictate what you decide to buy

i was debating a couple of boats:
40' Dufour A 9000
42' palmer johnson
47' meta voyageur
57.7' Reinke
various others.

whats easy to sail? it will be me and the girlfriend no one else, i think once i get a feel for it i will be very good, but she will never be self assured with it, so i need something with very low manpower, but at the same time i am resourceful.

5......everything is easy to sail once you know how.

6......Your girlfriend needs to become confident and capable , so suggest you change your attitude if you want a happy crew

7......Personal Ergonomic Priorities develop from big boat sailing experience which you have none of yet.....offer to crew on a few offshore deliveries to recognize the difference between marina designs and cruising designs.



keeping in mind everything i mentioned.
what do you people who've been sailing for years suggest?

8......Keep all options open and trust your gut



1- is it possible to have plants on deck? or will the salt kill them? curious MIXED SUCCESS
2- is an aluminium boat going to be hot to the touch? when im traveling? YES
i imagine im barefoot, is that fine? YED
3- ive never sailed the ocean, what regulations are there? rules? can anyone guide me towards some culmination of them? VERY NAÏVE QUESTION.... YOU NEED TO DO SOME BASIC HOMEWORK OR TAKE A BEGINNER COURSE
4- maintenance what sort of time frame do you get the barnacles removed? can you do it yourself with a scrapper? (i know this may make me look retarded!) any other maintenance i need to know about and do regularly? how regularly? VERY NAÏVE LINE OF QUESTIONS WHICH ARE INCIDENTAL IF YOU ARE COMMITTED TO BECOMING A SAILOR.

[Don C L]

OK. I'll bite. You have asked, here is my preference and why.
Fiberglass, thick. It is strong and easy to repair.
Boat: I have a few favorites that I like for what they can DO. But I would never recommend anyone singlehand them (sail them alone) unless they had a good deal of experience. A Peterson 44 is a fine choice. It is fast, performs well and most were built very well. A Pearson 367 or 365 are also favorites of mine for the same reason. But those boats are smaller than what you mentioned. I do not recommend getting as big a boat as you have stated for 2 people. Bigger boats have bigger problems and much bigger forces working on them. I really like the older long keel boats for their strength and simplicity of design. I like the Pearson Rhodes 41 for its design and sailing characteristics but that boat will never show well in a boat show these days among people with little sailing experience. It's too long and too skinny. If you want to stay with the boats you mentioned, I'd recommend planning to hire crew to help you with them. I may have missed it, but what is the rush again?

Bottom paint will resist most growth on the bottom for 3 or 4 years.

You are free to roam the oceans without too many regulations once you are out of sight of land or other ships.

Now, very important, do you love the ocean and do you love being out on it for weeks at a time in all of its various moods and tempers? If not, or if you are not sure, you are about to waste a big chunk of change that might be better spent on a ranch in the Northwest Territories.

I write this all assuming your post is for real, but doubting it is

[BeOur3rd]

Originally Posted by farm sail

We are trying to help you, but it is very obvious this was your first stop on the road to learning. The questions you asked and the way you asked them and the way you responded when you didn't get the answers you wanted are all pretty good indicators you are looking for short cuts.

im going to say it again, i asked to be pointed in the direction of books courses and anything you think i need, those were all fine.

what put my back up was the insulting condescending attitude which you show here above still! in no way did i want short cuts or did i hint at wanting shortcuts, i want to learn as much as i can in the next two years as fast as i can.

you think im a petty person who wanted a shortcut except that is VERY far from the truth, from the start of this thread i ignored the attitude and wrote down the books so i could get them. and i sent thank you's to people who did give me ideas.

[BeOur3rd]

Originally Posted by OldFrog75

Personally, I have sailed Catalinas, Beneteaus, Jeanneaus, Hunters, Dufour, Hanse, Bavaria, Santana, and J-Boats ranging in size from 22'- 46'. I didn't hate any of them but if I could afford any boat on that list it would be a Hanse or Bavaria because I think they have better build quality, but then I also drive a German car so I might be subliminally prejudiced there.

I have no experience sailing boats with metal hulls and very limited experience sailing Catamarans so no help for you there, although Catamarans clearly have more cabin space than monohulls.

thank you!

[farm sail]

Originally Posted by BeOur3rd

im going to say it again, i asked to be pointed in the direction of books courses and anything you think i need, those were all fine.

what put my back up was the insulting condescending attitude which you show here above still! in no way did i want short cuts or did i hint at wanting shortcuts, i want to learn as much as i can in the next two years as fast as i can.

you think im a petty person who wanted a shortcut except that is VERY far from the truth, from the start of this thread i ignored the attitude and wrote down the books so i could get them. and i sent thank you's to people who did give me ideas.

I never said or even thought you were/are petty or stupid. If you took my information and comments as condensing and insulting that was you interpretation. But since that is the way you seam to be I WILL sign off with something like that. You definitely got off on the wrong foot. If you want to get a bunch of great advice from a bunch of amazing folks around here you need to tune your attitude. Remember you came asking. Your the one with the need. I don't need anything from you so I won't waste any more of my time till you settle in. Well except for the rude/condencending/insulting comment I promised you. Especially science it fits so well

I can lead a horse to water, but I can't make him think.

[Don C L]

Check:
Bluewaterboats.org for a list of proven cruising designs.
Atomvoyages.com has good practical advice from experienced sailors.
Mahina.com might be a great resource for you.

And there is a host of youtube video diaries and postings of cruising trips to have a look at. Here is just one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8calS9G2BA

(a 50 footer with a steel hull)

[Pelagic]

Fun video

[BeOur3rd]

Originally Posted by Don C L

Check:
Bluewaterboats.org for a list of proven cruising designs.
Atomvoyages.com has good practical advice from experienced sailors.
Mahina.com might be a great resource for you.

(a 50 footer with a steel hull)

yeah i've subscribed to a few of these and been watching, thanks i had not seen him.

[Hudson Force]

Originally Posted by BeOur3rd

so we've made a decision to find a boat that suits us and make it a live-aboard

.......... lets assume we don't have more than 250,000.00-USD to spend
.......... i would prefer the largest boat i can manage with 2 of us as crew
.......... we need something thats as cheap as possible)
.......... i need something with very low manpower

keeping in mind everything i mentioned.
what do you people who've been sailing for years suggest?

.........................................

I can only speak of what has worked well for my wife and I with our years of liveaboard cruising. So, I can't answer questions about aluminum hulls, catamarans or plants on the deck, but we have cruised inexpensively, with low manpower and managed with a crew of two for a long time.

There does seem to be a bit of conflict in your wish list among the points I've taken from your post above. $250K and the larger boat doesn't fit well with the cheap as possible and low manpower. When we were first boat shopping in 1971 I thought the smallest boat that would suit us would be 40', but before the 1970's were past my wife and I were living comfortably on a 33' boat with two children. The only sacrifice I had perceived was less boat speed with the lower waterline length. Since I had been raised in a house, I didn't have the awareness of how easily I could adapt to the smaller space.

If I were in your position today I know I would be able to find a well-suited boat around 35', likely a fiberglass cutter rig, for about $50K and have the 200K in the bank. This choice would also allow for the "low manpower" with less costly maintenance.

There's a great freedom that comes with having less in the way of material possessions and some money in the bank!

[BeOur3rd]

Originally Posted by Hudson Force

I can only speak of what has worked well for my wife and I with our years of liveaboard cruising. So, I can't answer questions about aluminum hulls, catamarans or plants on the deck, but we have cruised inexpensively, with low manpower and managed with a crew of two for a long time.

There does seem to be a bit of conflict in your wish list among the points I've taken from your post above. $250K and the larger boat doesn't fit well with the cheap as possible and low manpower. When we were first boat shopping in 1971 I thought the smallest boat that would suit us would be 40', but before the 1970's were past my wife and I were living comfortably on a 33' boat with two children. The only sacrifice I had perceived was less boat speed with the lower waterline length. Since I had been raised in a house, I didn't have the awareness of how easily I could adapt to the smaller space.

If I were in your position today I know I would be able to find a well-suited boat around 35', likely a fiberglass cutter rig, for about $50K and have the 200K in the bank. This choice would also allow for the "low manpower" with less costly maintenance.

There's a great freedom that comes with having less in the way of material possessions and some money in the bank!

we already have no material possessions, the only things we own currently is a house two vehicles and a canoe ;]..maybe a couple other things too. hehe

thanks for the reply i appreciate it very much, this is actually the conversation we had last night, after reading this thread twice over to make sure i got everyones concerns and they sank in, we've decided to do exactly what you said. and if we want we can buy a bit of land somewhere with the money too which cant hurt, or upgrade to a big boat.

now..anyone have any input on these two boats? im about to research both so am curious of any practical knowledge.

1968 Tartan 34 Classic #7


1976 33' Ranger


either of these a good "first boat" ?

[jangann]

These exact boats from Ebay (these seem like Ebay boats)? Or these models?

I would caution against buying a big, first boat like this from Ebay. I would prefer you not be pressured by the time and bidding, that you look at a lot of boats (like a dozen) in person, and that you make sure you have a good survey done on a big boat like this. Surveyors will help you understand a boat and tell you if it's a bad deal. If it were a little boat, I'd be less wary of Ebay, or if you had experience. Any big, or expensive, boat you need to make an offer on contingent on a successful survey and seatrial, and that's hard to do on Ebay, for a newbie anyways.

Both of these models are nice boats. Tons of people have cruised on Tartans. But you want to think about what you are looking for in a boat. Tartans are fast and nimble, but not built for heavy seas or big weather. I would be very happy to have one if I were coastal cruising, but not going offshore. I feel the same way about a Ranger. Also, the Tartan might have a centerboard (google it if you don't know what that is). That might be good for you if you were going to the Bahamas for example, but you might not like them (I don't, I had one that broke endlessly). Something else to consider is that a Tartan 37 is way harder to get into a slip (a dock) than a smaller Ranger; big boats have a lot of inertia when approaching solid objects (like docks or other boats, like mine), so can take a lot of experience to dock successfully. If you want to be on a dock, the smaller Ranger might be better.

Here's a better question for you to ask: Where do you want to go? Where do you foresee yourself spending time? The Great Lakes? The Bahamas? The South Pacific? A Great Circle trip around the east coast of the N. America? Tell us that and we might be able to evaluate the suitability of these model boat.

All that being said, I still advocate for getting a smaller boat to start with. Catalina 27, Pearson 28, Hunter 25-28 . . . etc. Great for getting out as a beginner, learning, gaining experience. And you could do more than that in a small boat -- any of these could do the Bahamas, for example. Small is not bad.

Good luck.