Heavy Monohulls vs Light Catamarans

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

It is interesting Outremer gets so many mentions while actually today the fast cruising cat is completely elsewhere:


https://www.worldcruising.com/conten...allResults.pdf


A 40ft TS outsails a 50ft Otremer by some 5-10%
A 50ft TS outsails a 50ft Otremer by 15-25%


Cheers. Argue less, watch races and rallies more!


barnakiel

Here's an interesting comment from a TS owner.

I met a guy sailing one on a circumnavigation. I was onboard chatting and I definitely would like one.

I asked him about how fast the boat was on passage, his answer "not that much faster over longer distances than yours would be".

Now am I saying a Catalina 470 is as fast as a TS?....absolutely not, not even close, mine is a VW beetle compared to a Ferrari.

He explained that the boat was capable of double digits regularly BUT in the real world over long distances he kept it quite depowered in order to be comfortable and relaxed over the long haul, I cant remember what his averages were BUT they weren't extraordinary.

I know myself , to slow on Sukha is uncomfortable and to fast is to intense over time, therefore I often manage both ends ,trying to speed her up and slow her down in order to get the goldilocks position...."just right".

[smj]

Originally Posted by daletournier

Here's an interesting comment from a TS owner.

I met a guy sailing one on a circumnavigation. I was onboard chatting and I definitely would like one.

I asked him about how fast the boat was on passage, his answer "not that much faster over longer distances than yours would be".

Now am I saying a Catalina 470 is as fast as a TS?....absolutely not, not even close, mine is a VW beetle compared to a Ferrari.

He explained that the boat was capable of double digits regularly BUT in the real world over long distances he kept it quite depowered in order to be comfortable and relaxed over the long haul, I cant remember what his averages were BUT they weren't extraordinary.

I know myself , to slow on Sukha is uncomfortable and to fast is to intense over time, therefore I often manage both ends ,trying to speed her up and slow her down in order to get the goldilocks position...."just right".

And I think whether talking mono or multi that’s a good point to bring up. In winds of 15 gusting 20 our TRT will do about 7-10 kts under just the 110% jib on a deep broad reach. I’m guessing the more popular heavy cats would be under full sail doing the same speed.
Which boat and which crew are being more stressed?
I guess my point is, a performance boat isn’t always about sailing at the speeds it could sail at its about sailing well in light airs and sailing with less stress on boat and crew in heavier airs.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Capdave360

...why bash other people's choices just because they have more money??

Take it easy CapDave360, I'm not bashing you or your boat, which I think is a pretty nice boat. Nor am I tarring your boat. Or Catamarans in general. Mostly I like high performance boats. Of all kinds.

We're off the subject here, which is a discussion of heavy monohulls vs light catamarans, a sort of dumb discussion anyhow, but my point is that these fantastic big and fast modern catamarans don't seem to bring people that much joy, since they seem to walk away pretty easily. Of course that is OK, people can and should follow wherever their current interests lie.

But maybe we should not lust for one if the ability to own it also puts one in a place where the simple pleasures of sailing sailing it can be so easily shrugged off as just another temporary indulgence.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by smj

And I think whether talking mono or multi that’s a good point to bring up. In winds of 15 gusting 20 our TRT will do about 7-10 kts under just the 110% jib on a deep broad reach. I’m guessing the more popular heavy cats would be under full sail doing the same speed.
Which boat and which crew are being more stressed?
I guess my point is, a performance boat isn’t always about sailing at the speeds it could sail at its about sailing well in light airs and sailing with less stress on boat and crew in heavier airs.

You could also say , a boat that is hard to slow down can be more stressful as well?

I traveled in company with a largish Schioning Cosmos, I remember the skipper saying to me once "one of the biggest stress's is trying to slow the boat down in certain situations. Also his wife commented on how uncomfortable she was at faster speeds hanging on due to the jerky morion!

Btw, we softened turned up in Anchorages not far behind them, yes sometimes we may of (not sure) motored abit more but in real world cruising there wasnt much in it.

My point is real long passage cruising is different from little coastal runs that are often done in fair weather. Theres many variables.

[smj]

Originally Posted by daletournier

You could also say , a boat that is hard to slow down can be more stressful as well?

I traveled in company with a largish Schioning Cosmos, I remember the skipper saying to me once "one of the biggest stress's is trying to slow the boat down in certain situations. Also his wife commented on how uncomfortable she was at faster speeds hanging on due to the jerky morion!

Btw, we softened turned up in Anchorages not far behind them, yes sometimes we may of (not sure) motored abit more but in real world cruising there wasnt much in it.

My point is real long passage cruising is different from little coastal runs that are often done in fair weather. Theres many variables.

Absolutely. But as they say, harder to make a slow boat go faster than a fast boat go slower.

[Chotu]

This is one of the greatest reasons I have a high performance cat.

The top speed stuff is fun, but it's being able to go out in smooth, flat conditions with little wind, get plenty of sail area up and comfortably make a reasonable speed getting to your destination.

That's what my dream is.

I've spent most of my life on boats (of all types) wishing for more wind. I'm trying to have a boat that doesn't need much wind.

Originally Posted by daletournier

Here's an interesting comment from a TS owner.

I met a guy sailing one on a circumnavigation. I was onboard chatting and I definitely would like one.

I asked him about how fast the boat was on passage, his answer "not that much faster over longer distances than yours would be".

Now am I saying a Catalina 470 is as fast as a TS?....absolutely not, not even close, mine is a VW beetle compared to a Ferrari.

He explained that the boat was capable of double digits regularly BUT in the real world over long distances he kept it quite depowered in order to be comfortable and relaxed over the long haul, I cant remember what his averages were BUT they weren't extraordinary.

I know myself , to slow on Sukha is uncomfortable and to fast is to intense over time, therefore I often manage both ends ,trying to speed her up and slow her down in order to get the goldilocks position...."just right".

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

It is interesting Outremer gets so many mentions while actually today the fast cruising cat is completely elsewhere:

https://www.worldcruising.com/conten...allResults.pdf

A 40ft TS outsails a 50ft Otremer by some 5-10%
A 50ft TS outsails a 50ft Otremer by 15-25%

Cheers. Argue less, watch races and rallies more!

barnakiel

So what I am starting to understand is that big, light, fast catamarans are still a developing concept. (guess I am quite late to this game). Each generation of newer designs with the newest technology I guess are quickly pushing the boundaries of what a catamaran can be and can do. I sort of ignored Gunboats when they first appeared, wrote them off as extreme, (and extremely costly), but as more of these boats hit the market I see we don't yet know what they can develop into, or where the genre will end up.

I have never felt the charter/condo catamarans had made good monohulls obsolete, except for the guy who's focus on on comfort more than sailing.

But these light, fast, (sparse?) machines might actually make the best of monohulls obsolete. WOW! I never thought I would say that.

What remains to be seen is if they can actually be viable as cruising yachts, or liveaboards, and if they can be safely sailed by a mom and pop crew. The video of the Marsaudon TS5 showed a nice interior, with quite a few little storage cubbies. Could you put over 2000lbs of liveaboard stuff in it and still have a great sailing boat? Is it safe? What happens in a 40 knot squall if one hits during the night with one person on watch sailing and they have a full main and a small jib in 12 knots of wind? Would lack of expertise or a slow response result in disaster?

Lots to see over the next few years, if these boats take off (become more popular). Of course the market for $1.5 million boats is a little slimmer than it is for $150 thousand used cruising boats.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by smj

Absolutely. But as they say, harder to make a slow boat go faster than a fast boat go slower.

I'm probably arguing for the sake if arguing as I'm actually a performance cat fan BUT, if I have trouble slowing my Catalina 470 down sometimes then I'm sure these performance cats have more.

During a gale in the Indian ocean under barepoles we were sailing 6-7knots and surfed at 14k.

Theres always a downside guys, that's just reality but some conveniently forget this.

Are cats a more comfortable cruising platform? I'd say yes mostly BUT not always and not as often as some like to have us believe and that includes when at anchor.

Theres always a trade off, no way around it.

[Buzzman]

I think it's probably as much a budget thing as anything else. You look at what you can afford, and then look at what's available for that budget.

Only THEN can you thnk about whether or not a newer (and therefore more expensive) mono or cat is "fit for budget and purpose'.

Me, I'd love a Gunboat, or a an A57, or even an F-32 if I'm honest, but my budget doesn't even stretch to the second hand Command 10 recently advertised on a lake in Utah or Texas somewhere.

The other issue at the lower end of the market is that shorter multis are less livable than a similar length mono, so people with restricted budgets tend to go for a mono as being 'more bang for buck'. I'm a bit weird in insisting on a trimaran, and a folder.

But I do follow the cheaper mono market, more out of curiousity, but also from an "if the tri doesn't work out, let's just go sailing' model.

Right now, I'm still accumulating cash to maybe get something tlike that Seawings 36 over on the Cheap Multis thread. That's about at my budget level (low 30s) but I just don't have it to spend right now.

But if I won Lotto..?? I'de be putting a "A57 wanted" ad on Yachtworld.

At te moment I'm keeping my enthusiasm up by watching YT vids of those already out there and doing it on the cheap, such as 'Free Range sailing' on a 30' mono.

Then I see footage of the boat rolling downwind, and rolling around in exposed anchorages, and unable to get up rives due to draught....and I keep my fingers crossed the stars will one day soon align for me.

But from what I've seen in marinas and yacht clubs, most folks are constrained by family, work and availability of longer holidays to properly enjoy their boats. the notion that a boat in a slip is more likely to be use than a boat on a mooring is a bit if a furphy I reckon.

If you can affor dto keep a boat in a slip year round, you're probably in a high pressure work environment that doesn't leave loads of time to cruise.

Racing seems to get people out more often, as it's a structured activity with a time line. Start here at this time, finish here before this time. Easier to "put aside" a few hours for some structured time on the water, and that provides enough of a shot in the arm till next time.

And I guess for a lot of people (wel, maybe some anyway) the boat is as much a status symbol as anything else. You know, BBQ boast type of thing, but also as much a 'look, I've made it" kind of self reward, so in those cases, ownership alone is probably enough.

Be nice if those buggered off and left some room for people who would actually *sail* their boats!!! lol

[Joli]

We find sailing an average over 10 knots in the ocean is uncomfortable. A 200 mile day is an 8.4 knot average, it's a comfortable place for us. But that doesn't mean we aren't sailing above 10 knots, we just don't keep the boat at that pace. Looking at passage times I don't see many that are faster then 200 mile days, see state tends to slow everyone down.

[DougM]

CapDave - When did you tack up Big Bras D'Or channel? I motored past an Atlantic 57 last summer - first one I've seen in this part of the world. maybe that was you? i was in a hurry to get to Baddeck so I was motoring, doing 7 knots. Took a long long time to overtake the big cat, really impressive vmg, and likewise for the boat speed showing on AIS!

DougM

Originally Posted by Capdave360

or you're hopelessly biased to the point of ignoring reality.

Attached - picture of the chartplotter tacking our multi into Bras D'Or Lakes!

[Yotiheff]

Wasn’t it a Hereschoff? :”The only thing weight is good for is a steamroller “. Too much weight kills multis, monos, and old sailors like me. Slow is often not safe. Weight = stress. We have learn this down in the Southern Hemisphere, but I thought you might appreciate your own “Grandfather of Modern Yachts”. Certainly GoMY would be horrified by the modern trend of overweight roomarrans.

[barnakiel]

Great many of the smallest boats that sailed distances were very light, very nimble, often unballasted.


Hence as size and weight grow, there is little justification for any extra weight, unless one is building a navy destroyer or something of this kind.


Best boats are light and many excellent cruising boats are light to moderate. Very few good boats are very heavy.


b.

[Yotiheff]

We are all ignorant. We can all, at least us on this site. Want to know more? Read more history as well. Nothing is all that new.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Joli

We find sailing an average over 10 knots in the ocean is uncomfortable. A 200 mile day is an 8.4 knot average, it's a comfortable place for us. But that doesn't mean we aren't sailing above 10 knots, we just don't keep the boat at that pace. Looking at passage times I don't see many that are faster then 200 mile days, see state tends to slow everyone down.

Depends on the boat, doesn't it?



I find sailing faster than hull speed minus 1 knot starts to get tiring on monohulls. That's a pace for 200 mile days on our boat. We very rarely break 200 miles; our record I think is 223. To approach hull speed from hull speed minus one starts to take enormous power; producing that power takes a whole different level of effort even if the conditions are good for it.


On the other hand, my friend with a Swan 90 did 250 miles day after day, effortlessly, while crossing the Pacific, and broke 300 a few times.


In our old boat, a heavyish 37 foot mono, a 200 mile day is a mere wet dream (so to speak). Never happen. 150 miles was a real good day.


It depends on the boat.