Fridge and watermaker on 27' mono?

[kmacdonald]

With 3 or 400 watt solar you should have plenty of power without running the engine. The 40 amp standard alternator is plenty for a 225 ah battery bank. Trojan recommends 12% of the amp hour capacity or a 27 amp charge rate in your case. They may accept more than 40 amps but only for a very short period of time. You can easily make your own 20 or 40 gph gas powered watermaker and skip the generator. That would save weight, space and money. With that much watermaking capacity, you could take showers on deck several times a day in front of the rest of the boats in the anchorage. You could also cut back a little on the solar then.

[laika]

Hi Gene,

I can tell you what we've done on our 27', what has worked for us, and what we'd do differently.

-Engel fridge.
-Cape Horn X WM (thanks Tellie)
-two US Battery2200s for a total of 232Ah
-244W of solar on a 20A MPPT solar regulator
-80A alternator w/ balmar ext reg on a 3Gm30

Our cruising grounds have been US East Coast, Bahamas, Cuba, MX, and Belize.

We recently had a cell go bad in our 5yo Trojan 410Ah bank and the 2200s were the best we could find with the space we have to fit em. If you are planning on being self-sufficient for any period of time, don't murder your batteries. You will lose capacity and the efficiency curve for the energy you do produce will snowball. Get the biggest bank you can fit so you can keep the batt discharges as shallow as possible. Make sure they regularly see at least close to 100% SoC. And consider an equalization charge option when you shop around for your solar / shorepower charge controllers. If battery access for water monitoring is an issue, get a watering system such as the flow-rite so you don't have to tear apart the boat to check regularly.

We have half our 244W of solar mounted high on tracking pivots and the rest on the dodger and see about 65Ah on a typical mostly sunny day in the NW caribbean.

The Engel fridge pulls about 3A when it is on. The colder the temp you set it at (and the warmer the boat cabin is), the more it will cycle on. We keep ours on low to limit consumption, and sometimes turn it off at night if there is not much in there. On low, keeping at about 45 degrees, it draws about 25-30Ah each day with an ambient cabin temp of 80. Getting drunk and occasionally deciding a large stash of ice cream makes sense, it can draw more than twice that.

The Cape Horn X is a great fit for us because when the sun is high in the sky and the solar is pulling in ~10A, we can run on a single feed pump which draws about 8A. After the batts have been given a few hours to recharge in the morning, we can turn the WM on for say 3-4 hours in the afternoon, net maybe 15-20 gallons of water after the fresh water flush, and still get the batts back to maybe 90-95% by sundown. We do this every couple days.

If we are motoring somewhere, we turn both the feed pumps on and make water twice as fast at about 16A or so. Enough to fill up our ~45gallon tank in a few hours.

After a few years, we have great confidence in the Spectra unit overall. We also carry a little manual powersurvivor 06 in the ditchbag.

The other major power consumer onboard is a little 52Ah LiPO portable electronic battery. We charge it up every other day or so giving us enough juice to power a few small electronics and maybe a few laptop cycles. Or if we go to shore to eat somewhere, we often carry our electronics in tow to charge them there.

With this setup, we manage to just scrape by, rarely having to turn the engine on if we don't want to while still keeping the batteries happy. Would be great to have a bit more solar, just not sure where we'd want to put it.

If we did anything differently, we would do as others have suggested and beef up the insulation on a built-in refer. The engel is great, but even with it's little jacket on, the insulation could be better.

We would also like to have a larger battery bank again. If you have the height in your battery compartment, the footprint for larger L16-type batteries is about the same as GC2s. Get em while you can!

Hope this helps. Personal choices and to each their own. If we had a washer/dryer on board, i'd probably find it hard to do without that too!

Ryan

[Q Xopa]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

You can run a 50 amp charger off of a 1000W generator but that is working it hard, but likely your two wet Cell golf cart batteries will never exceed 50 amps acceptance rate anyway, so that is sort of mute.

As far as running a Watermaker off of a generator, yes, a great many do that. In fact I’d say the Cruise RO is sort of designed, or intended to run off of a Honda 2000, a 1000 will not do it however, it takes the 2000 or the newer 2200.
AC powered watermakers are usually a fraction of the cost of say a Spectra, but they do pretty much require a generator to run them.
From an energy consumption standpoint, they are pigs compared to a Spectra, the Spectra makes several times as much water for the same energy, that is why it’s possible if you have enough Solar to not need a generator if you have a Spectra.
The cheapest I have ever heard of is an inexpensive one out of Fl that uses a Karcher pressure washer to drive it, less than $2,000 I think.

I get 35 gls an hour out of my Cruise RO and it draws about 9.3 amps, that leaves enough power left over to charge my bank with about 40 amps DC, my charger is adjustable.
I make about 200 gls of water for every gallon of gasoline burned, maybe a little less, so figure 1 5 gl can of gas will both charge your battery bank and make you almost 2000 gls of water.

Has anyone tried to run the CruiseRO 40GPH model with the bigger Honda 220i? I know the Honda 2000i wouldnt quite run the 1.5 HP needed for the bigger pump on the 40GPH.
No doubt Rich would know?

SeawaterPro, Fl, is selling his 21GPH single 40in membrane for around $1,600. 110VAC Kraucher pump setup. But he has got other pump options he sells like Chinese Stainless steel ones or American made ones if youd prefer for a bit extra.

[elscotto]

Ok, some real life experience with the fridge at least. No maths though.
35 litre Engel, 100Ah lead acid battery, 80W solar panel.
Went for a week long sail with the above, also powered sounder, GPS, VHF and a radio plus led lights.
The fridge was on the entire time set to not freeze anything, it was stored out in the cockpit under a bimini and the air temps were around 26 degrees, falling to maybe 18 at night, in the Whitsundays Queensland.
At the end of the trip the battery was still showing over 12V so 100Ah with 80W can run a small Engel with no problems.
I did not have a water maker so cannot help there.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Q Xopa

Has anyone tried to run the CruiseRO 40GPH model with the bigger Honda 220i? I know the Honda 2000i wouldnt quite run the 1.5 HP needed for the bigger pump on the 40GPH.
No doubt Rich would know?

SeawaterPro, Fl, is selling his 21GPH single 40in membrane for around $1,600. 110VAC Kraucher pump setup. But he has got other pump options he sells like Chinese Stainless steel ones or American made ones if youd prefer for a bit extra.

problem here is space to mount that big of a membrane unit.

[Pizzazz]

I have a slightly bigger boat, a 31' Hunter but many of the systems will be similar. You need to make sacrifices somewhere:

- Two golf cart batteries plus a starting battery for a total of 300AHrs = $300. Plan on running the batteries from 80% charged down to 30% discharged, at least the house batteries. This will give you 100Ahrs plus per day. If you can charge them to a 100% at least once a week great. If not just replace as necessary. This will be lowest cost.

- Main engine plus a simple 80A alternator (will give you around 55-60A average charging power) as main charging source. Plan on running two hours a day, likely when motoring. $70

- For the watermaker, you have two options, one is an older Power Survivor 35, will produce 1.2 gph at 4A average draw. You need to mount it somewhere quiet. You will be able to hear it at anchor but if on while sailing, you will not notice it. You can leave it on for 10 hours a day if needed. The other option is to talk to Rich and get one of his models, high current, noisy but you will be done with water generation in 1-2 hours every couple of days. If you combine this with your engine running time to charge the batteries, you will do fine. PS35s come on eBay for $500-700, Rich's well, talk to him.

- Many options for a fridge, go built in and well insulated, you do not need it to be very big. The fuller you keep the fridge, the less energy it will use.

- If you need more power, my suggestion is to get an inverter generator, 700W, from Amazon for $250 and treat it as a disposable unit. These little things run great, will charge your batteries at 40A, make sure you do not leave ethanol gas in it for a long time - not good. You can keep it anywhere, an anchor locker is ideal if insulated from the rest of the boat.

- Solar on small boats does not work or it looks ugly. I would have 150W on the dodger and consider this a backup option if the other charging sources fail. On a good day, it will help you get to 100% on the batteries. On a bad day, it will just stay there making you feel good.

- One other option that will be helpful if you have small batteries and a small generator is a smart inverter charger (Heart Interface can be had cheap or any newer on Amazon). The key function for you will be smart load balancing where you set the charger to take up to 5A from the generator (approx. 600W, which matches the 700W generator) and if there is a higher current demand (watermaker, microwave, anything bigger) it will take the extra current from the batteries. Sounds complicated but it is really simple.

- The last thing with all the money you saved is an LG sidekick automatic washing machine, you disassemble it and only keep the drum, approx. 2' by 2' by 3/4'. You can fit this under a settee and you have fully automatic, water efficient washing on board.

This will be a well equipped extended cruising boat from a liveability perfective. Sails, autopilot and other electronics are just as important though.

Good luck,
SV Pizzazz

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Pizzazz

- The last thing with all the money you saved is an LG sidekick automatic washing machine, you disassemble it and only keep the drum, approx. 2' by 2' by 3/4'. You can fit this under a settee and you have fully automatic, water efficient washing on board.

This will be a well equipped extended cruising boat from a liveability perfective. Sails, autopilot and other electronics are just as important though.

Good luck,
SV Pizzazz

Given the engine is only a 14hp Beta, you might ditch the engine start battery and just go with the house bank to reduce weight and save space. Also how many amps can a pair of T105s absorb? our 2 x Gp31s start at 42A from the alternator when discharged, which then reduces quite quickly as the batteries are charged. The alternator is 60A, the batteries just can't absorb that much, so a larger alternator on a 14hp diesel may not produce any real benefits.

The little washing machine is interesting, have you taken yours apart? The downside is it weighs 50kgs

Janice wrote an interesting thread on her blog about small washing machines:

http://janice142.com/Articles/BestChoiceWasher.html

If you are not aware, Janice, who is a memebr of CF, has lived on a 23ft mobo for some years. I guess she has living on a small boat pretty much squared away.

[Muddy Anchor]

That's funny, I recently gutted a 27' Ericson and installed a 14hp Beta also.
Good luck with your project

[peter loveridge]

we have a 30 footer original designed in 1930, only 9 feet beam. Spent a year going from NS to the Bahamas and back and live aboard about 3 months of the year. We have 3x 75W solar panels. Engel freezer, 11 years old draws a bit more than 2A in freezer mode, a fifth of this as fridge. Never touched it for maintenance, but if its 30C+ and humid it can struggle. Mine is the 35 quart one, I'd get the next size up if I replace it, same dimension except 2" higher. same current draw I have a Honda 1000 but no room to store it. No watermaker, have you considered collecting rainwater? easy to make something out of canvas, no maintenance, dirt cheap, no weight, etc. My perama 30 has a 55A alternator, run it and hour every second day. My marine engineer friends tell me this does not harm the engine, but is does cost $2/KW hour

[Cthoops]

You might want to look into Firefly batteries. They can take a beating, regularly going below 50% and back up to fully charged without any issues. Since space and weight is a big consideration on a small boat, you may find the price to be worth it.

We have been cruising full time on our Bristol 29.9 for six months now and love them. Their specs meant we only needed 2 Firefly batteries vs 3 traditional batteries, saving us quite a bit of weight and space.

Good luck.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Erm, so thats's about $20,000 you have just spent on a 1960s 27ft boat

Pete

It could be quite a bit more than that. He said he had installed a new diesel earlier.

Plus if it's that old it may need new sails as well plus autopilot etc

[mitiempo]

Originally Posted by Gene Neill

The fridge is the big power hog in this equation. The Engel units I'm looking at claim a 0.7- 2.7 Amps draw, which is obviously an enormous swing. I estimate its energy consumption at 2A for 18 hours, or 36Ah/day. Pure guesswork of course. Does anyone feel I am either high or low on this number?

The watermaker is a little easier to figure, since we have a pretty good idea how much water we need, and how much power it takes to make it. I have budgeted 12Ah/day, to make 5.5 gallons of water. Any time we can collect 5.5 gallons of rainwater, or bring it from shore, we could save those 12Ah for that day. But with extremely limited tankage (18 gallons!) we need the watermaker for peace of mind, if nothing else.

An Engel's consumption is .7 amps as a fridge and 2.5 amps as a freezer @ 77degrees F according to Engel and having owned one for about 6 years I agree. Certainly a bit more in a tropical area.

As far as a watermaker the most efficient is the Spectra. 6 gallons @ 9 amps consumption. Run it every 2nd or 3rd day and no pickling needed unless you leave the boat for a while. Quiet as well. There is a very good reason Katadyn (maker of 40E etc) bought Spectra a few years ago - for their technology.

I am doing the same as you on a 27' boat (wider beam though) and will install a Spectra Ventura 150 - forget the 200T as it only works in warmer waters.
Spectra watermakers are modular and can easily be installed in a small boat.

I will have over 300 watts of solar on an arch and will have 4 T-105 or similar batteries - unless I install LiFePo4.

I know these products well as I sell those I have mentioned.

[Don C L]

This a great thread. I don't yet foresee a time when I could afford all the power generation, power storage, refrigeration and watermaking technology, along with all the infrastructure to support them, but thanks to y'all I see it may just be possible on our little boats!

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Don C L

This a great thread. I don't yet foresee a time when I could afford all the power generation, power storage, refrigeration and watermaking technology, along with all the infrastructure to support them, but thanks to y'all I see it may just be possible on our little boats!

the most expensive part of my refit will be the technautics system at just over $2k.
That includes the new insulation of the ice box I'm converting. I paid $500 for my powersurvivor35 . So far I have $350 in my Lfp 100ah bank .
I don't count the solar in the upfit prices due to it being repurposed from other projects/ previous boats. Eventually I will do a full financial breakdown on my refit thread. Including the new composting head for this boat.

If I can fit it in a 29 ft hull with 8 ft beam you can to .

[witzgall]

My experience on a 35 ft. boat, wintered in the Bahamas. When we bought her. she has a Ventura 150 WM, 120w solar, a very well insulated small fridge (re-insulated from inside), a Balmar 120a alternator/MC-612 reg, and four golf cart batteries.

The boat has 66 gallons of water tankage. We added a old, crappy air-403 wind gen, but with new, silent blades. I then scrapped the golf cart batts and changed to 400ah of LIFEPO4. I could have done it with 200ah. The Solar panel was tiltable fore-aft, and this helped tremendously.

We only started the engine twice in four months for the sole purpose of charging. We did take advantage of opportunistic charging while motoring or motorsailing. We used one, 33 gallon tank of water a week.

Get the Ventura 150. Don't even consider the 40e. You will not want to have it running while off the boat, and at 1.X gallons an hour, you will be a prisoner on your own boat otherwise.

If you get the engel, design a compartment for it that adds extra insulation, leaving room for the compressor to vent.

Upgrade the Beta with the 75 amp alternator w serpentine belt that Beta Marine NC offers. Regulate it externally with an MC-614 (Note, I work for Balmar) Install a Balmar SG200 to monitor your batteries, so you really know what is going on with them.

Chris