Forum Member's Boat and Daughter in Trouble off of Mexico

[Sea Frog]

Originally Posted by Cormorant

Ah, jeez, don't be such a DILLOWAY!

Or "Don't let them DILLOWAY you!"

[lancelot9898]

While I support the cruising lifestyle and parents decision and rights on raising their children, there is one aspect that is troubling for me. We live in an over regulated societly and my concern is that all this additional publicity will have a negative effect on our lifestyles. I've seen the slow creep of regulations over the 20 plus years of being a live aboard and the encroachment of free anchoring by more mooring fields and restrictions on the number of liveaboards allowed in a marina over those years. Additional insurance requirements and potty patrols are some other restrictions that come to mind. We can all argue about the merits of the addtional regulations, but IMHO this additional publicity will effect us all in time and I'm not sure it will be positive.

[Celestialsailor]

From some of the recent posts, I can see the armchair military is out in full force. Many of which I've never seen on this forum before. No doubt recent members to voice their negative opinion.
It's always a dead giveaway for me when I see a member with very few posts and no type of vessel given. It tells me you know little about the lifestyle. On this most recent trip, I would say 1 out of 20, cruise with kids. Having met Eric and Charlotte, I can tell you they are loving and attentive parents.
To me, letting a child sit in front of todays TV or subject them to violent video games is negligent, not sailing to new destinations.

[Kalinka1]

Originally Posted by Cormorant

I think "Dilloway" should become a new epithet, used to indicate a small-minded, sheltered, conformist, and spiteful person.

Ah, jeez, don't be such a DILLOWAY!

[Delfin]

Originally Posted by Clamdigger

Alas, when I singlehanded my own sailboat from New England through the Panama Canal and lost the boat in the Torres Straits no one offered to 'fund me another boat', oh yeah, COMPUTERS WERE 'NT EVEN INVENTED BACK THEN! LOL!

When I lost my (uninsured) liveaboard in Hurricane Sandy, I never mentioned it on CF. No 'boat fund' for me, LOL! I pulled up my pants (hence the clamdigger moniker) and found a room(notice I did not say house or even an apartment!) to rent, another job, and started toughing out Life from scratch all over again without asking taxpayers for a dime. I was raised working on a dairy farm where you were judged by your work not *financial worth*. It's probably what I enjoyed most about living and sailing my former boats, I was one of the *regular cruising crowd* not the *Goldplater crowd*. Today my Boss is my best friend because he grew up actually working for a living, and understands my mindset, when he gives me a task he knows it'll be done. I may always be just a *lurker* on CF, but I do harbor a *dream* of having another sailboat, abliet, even if it's *just* a 20 something footer to sail and live on into old age.

The reason my post count is so low is that I rarely have more than an hour a day to work/read online, sometimes I go a week without even getting on a computer to check my email! I'm exisiting right now not living. Boy would it be nice to have a place to call *home* again. But I'll never be able to spend hours online posting about my sailing prowness so I guess I'll have to just buy myself another boat through hardwork.

Glad the whole family has made it ashore together. I wish them strength in their coming days to find their quiet corner of this Planet to mend their family.

As you can see from Delancey's response to your post, which combines 3 sly insults with a hearty pat on his own back for compassion, there are fewer wannabe cruisers who equate the cruising lifestyle with competent self dependence than there probably are cruisers who actually do it, or have done the lifestyle. But I certainly understand where you are coming from.

I have no criticism for the Kaufmann's taking their one year old across an ocean other than knowing from first hand experience that it increases the burden on Mom a very great deal and if Mom isn't that thrilled with the program in the first place it is not going to be a happy cruise. And I certainly have no criticism with availing oneself of any and all assistance when your child is very sick, as this little girl was. I would do exactly the same in the same circumstances. And while I don't know enough to have an opinion, I sure wonder why someone steps off a sound vessel with sails only 900 miles off shore. I know there is a reason, but the only ones I can come up with wouldn't be sufficient for me, although they clearly were for Eric so there must be something I am missing.

Sorry you lost your vessels - I'd like to hear about the Torres Strait incident if you wish to share. There is always lots to learn from those who have experience, and quite a lot less to learn from those who don't.

Like you, I am glad the Kaufmann's are back home and hope their life gets back to normal soon. And I wouldn't worry much about people wanting to give money to them. They didn't ask for it I gather, and if it makes people feel better helping a fellow cruiser, or in some people's case superior to others by so doing, what's the harm?

[gonesail]

Originally Posted by Celestialsailor

It's always a dead giveaway for me when I see a member with very few posts and no type of vessel given. It tells me you know little about the lifestyle.

everybody is entitled to an opinion. people can lose boats along the way but still know about the lifestyle. and 1 year olds don't watch TV or play violent video games which is what the whole thing is about. you make your decisions and then you live with them for the rest of your life. carry on.

[montenido]

Salty Sam and the rest of the fleet,

I apologize for my insulting comment last night. We all have a right to our opinions. With that said, I am happy that Rebel Heart's crew are safe and sound in SD, and hope to cross paths with them in Mexico if they make it down again.

Again, sorry for the insult.

Cheers, Bill

[robert sailor]

Raising children has changed a lot in the last 50 years and for that matter 20 years, nothing to debate as its just a whole lot different today. I completely understand today's young parents being aghast at crossing an ocean in a small boat with a 1 year old. The people on this forum want the average Joe/Joanne to understand a cruisers mentality but it might be a wise thing for folks on this forum to try and understand these young parents who are so critical of the decision that was made in this situation. Probably 90% of the general population would have considered this decision to be a bad one so don't be upset when you read all the negative comments..."What would you expect"?? There is no doubt that this couple are treading on the edge of what is considered by today's society as good parenting. Like some cruisers here we have met many cruising families crossing oceans and by and large its a wonderful experience for children, although some might say they have to be old enough to have the experience.

[CatInHand]

Originally Posted by Clamdigger

Alas, when I singlehanded my own sailboat from New England through the Panama Canal and lost the boat in the Torres Straits no one offered to 'fund me another boat', oh yeah, COMPUTERS WERE 'NT EVEN INVENTED BACK THEN! LOL!

When I lost my (uninsured) liveaboard in Hurricane Sandy, I never mentioned it on CF. No 'boat fund' for me, LOL! I pulled up my pants (hence the clamdigger moniker) and found a room(notice I did not say house or even an apartment!) to rent, another job, and started toughing out Life from scratch all over again without asking taxpayers for a dime. I was raised working on a dairy farm where you were judged by your work not *financial worth*. It's probably what I enjoyed most about living and sailing my former boats, I was one of the *regular cruising crowd* not the *Goldplater crowd*. Today my Boss is my best friend because he grew up actually working for a living, and understands my mindset, when he gives me a task he knows it'll be done. I may always be just a *lurker* on CF, but I do harbor a *dream* of having another sailboat, abliet, even if it's *just* a 20 something footer to sail and live on into old age.

The reason my post count is so low is that I rarely have more than an hour a day to work/read online, sometimes I go a week without even getting on a computer to check my email! I'm exisiting right now not living. Boy would it be nice to have a place to call *home* again. But I'll never be able to spend hours online posting about my sailing prowness so I guess I'll have to just buy myself another boat through hardwork.

Glad the whole family has made it ashore together. I wish them strength in their coming days to find their quiet corner of this Planet to mend their family.

In the past, people communicated face-to-face with their neighbors. Today it's through the internet. Rebel Heart interacted with people, Charlotte through one group, Eric through another. It had nothing to do with boasting and everything to do with becoming known and giving people a feel for who they are.

Rebel Heart asked for nothing - they weren't even aware that there was money being raised for them in all likelihood - but their virtual friends learned that they were in trouble and wanted to help them.

Your post to me reads as "I didn't get help from other people (through my own unwillingness to socialize) and therefor I will criticize people who do get help.

Maybe if you did spend a little more time here you would realize that people would help you. Maybe not a fundraiser, but I'm certain they'd keep an eye out for vessels near you and in your price range, if they knew you were looking.

[Delancey]

Originally Posted by Delfin

As you can see from Delancey's response to your post, which combines 3 sly insults with a hearty pat on his own back for compassion, there are fewer wannabe cruisers who equate the cruising lifestyle with competent self dependence than there probably are cruisers who actually do it, or have done the lifestyle. But I certainly understand where you are coming from.

Hmmm, maybe my point isn't being recieved the way I intended?

OR

Maybe you would like to add to the lashing I received for daring to suggest people might plan to give themselves other options for survival at sea beyond simply planning on pushing a button for someone to come and rescue them?

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...al-122913.html

My point is that regardless of whether you like the guy or not or agree with his decisions or lifestyle choices, he and his family are now homeless. Where I come from people look after their own.

My boat is my home. I live the life. The night that Sandy made landfall my wife and I cried when we abandoned our home and walked DOWN the gangway and through chest deep water for half a city block to get to dry land and seek refuge at a fellow sailor's home who was kind enough to offer. Our neighbors lost boats, we were lucky.

Walk a half a city block in my shoes once, tell me how it feels?

[CatInHand]

Originally Posted by LBW399

I have no view on this either way.

But what I do have a view on is whether people have a right to criticise Rebel Heart or not.
Seems like the Rebel Heart guy had no problem having a right go at the guy that started, in my opinion, a genuine thread:
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ty-121069.html

Good for the goose good for the gander and all that.

I wish him and his family well in their recovery.

RH pointed out (correctly) the the guy was just trolling for blog readers. Certainly not "having a go" at anyone.

A poster truly interested in safety would have posted the relevant bits to the forum, not posted a teaser and a link.

[Captain Bill]

Originally Posted by sctpc

Id just like to know how the Kaufmans are to blame for Lyra getting sick should we lock them up within 200m for a hospital. Grow Up people should not have to ask you to live there life.

I have not seen any information that suggests that the proximate cause of the rescue and the loss of Rebel Heart was anything other than the daughter got sick. While RH may have been having some mechanical difficulties I have not seen anything that said she could not have continued under sail if the daughter had not gotten sick. Numerous people have pointed out that this was entirely unpredictable. I'm going to point out something that may be taken as blaming Eric and Charlotte, but it is not meant in that manner, but rather as a lesson to be learned. Some have pointed out that almost all incidents have a chain of events that lead up to the ultimate event. I'm going to venture that this was also true in this case. The initiating cause was the baby's first infection with salmonella. The ultimate cause, it would appear, is that they took some quack's word that she was ready to travel. The baby's relapse was entirely predictable. Charlotte stated that they were both diagnosed with Salmonella on March 11. If they got the standard course of treatment, a week of antibiotics, they would have finished those about the 18th or so of March. A ten minute check of medical sites on the internet shows that 15 to 20% of infants relapse after treatment. The relapse usually occurs one to three weeks after the initial treatment ends. It would seem that the baby's relapse occurred pretty much in the middle of that time span. The mistake that Eric and Charlotte made was trusting the doctor's word instead of educating themselves about the problem. I am giving them the benefit of the doubt and assuming that they did not go to sea knowing their baby had up to a 20% possibility of a relapse. The other thing to remember about relapses is that the relapse bug survived the initial antibiotic treatment which implies that it and its descendents are resistant to the original antibiotic and will require a different antibiotic for treatment.

The lesson to be learned here is that Doctors are not always a source for complete medical information. I look at doctors as medical advisors. If what they say doesn't make sense, check it out yourself or get a second opinion. Above all get as much information as you can about any diagnosis. This is especially true if you are going to be away from access to medical care for any length of time. With huge amounts of information available from reputable medical sources about any ailment being available on the internet there’s really not many excuses for not educating yourself.

I am very happy that everyone got home safe and sound, and sorry for the loss of RH. Sincerely hope they get a chance to try again if that is their wish.

Before a bunch of you start bashing my armchair opinions, I am in fact out there doing it. I have been full time cruising for almost three years. Actually cruising most time and repairing boats too much. The one thing I would really like to have on my boat is a comfortable armchair.

[scuba0_1]

I've really noticed on cf how many posters not members seem to just be waiting for failure. Where is the age that is to young, how many infants have I seen at Disney that can't be safe, I'd they made it would you then say??? I think some of people actual believe there comments carry weight.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[scuba0_1]

Originally Posted by Captain Bill

I have not seen any information that suggests that the proximate cause of the rescue and the loss of Rebel Heart was anything other than the daughter got sick. While RH may have been having some mechanical difficulties I have not seen anything that said she could not have continued under sail if the daughter had not gotten sick. Numerous people have pointed out that this was entirely unpredictable. I'm going to point out something that may be taken as blaming Eric and Charlotte, but it is not meant in that manner, but rather as a lesson to be learned. Some have pointed out that almost all incidents have a chain of events that lead up to the ultimate event. I'm going to venture that this was also true in this case. The initiating cause was the baby's first infection with salmonella. The ultimate cause, it would appear, is that they took some quack's word that she was ready to travel. The baby's relapse was entirely predictable. Charlotte stated that they were both diagnosed with Salmonella on March 11. If they got the standard course of treatment, a week of antibiotics, they would have finished those about the 18th or so of March. A ten minute check of medical sites on the internet shows that 15 to 20% of infants relapse after treatment. The relapse usually occurs one to three weeks after the initial treatment ends. It would seem that the baby's relapse occurred pretty much in the middle of that time span. The mistake that Eric and Charlotte made was trusting the doctor's word instead of educating themselves about the problem. I am giving them the benefit of the doubt and assuming that they did not go to sea knowing their baby had up to a 20% possibility of a relapse. The other thing to remember about relapses is that the relapse bug survived the initial antibiotic treatment which implies that it and its descendents are resistant to the original antibiotic and will require a different antibiotic for treatment.

The lesson to be learned here is that Doctors are not always a source for complete medical information. I look at doctors as medical advisors. If what they say doesn't make sense, check it out yourself or get a second opinion. Above all get as much information as you can about any diagnosis. This is especially true if you are going to be away from access to medical care for any length of time. With huge amounts of information available from reputable medical sources about any ailment being available on the internet there’s really not many excuses for not educating yourself.

I am very happy that everyone got home safe and sound, and sorry for the loss of RH. Sincerely hope they get a chance to try again if that is their wish.

Before a bunch of you start bashing my armchair opinions, I am in fact out there doing it. I have been full time cruising for almost three years. Actually cruising most time and repairing boats too much. The one thing I would really like to have on my boat is a comfortable armchair.

Have I missed something I have seen almost no information yet.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[Paul Elliott]

Originally Posted by Delancey

Maybe you would like to add to the lashing I received for daring to suggest people might plan to give themselves other options for survival at sea beyond simply planning on pushing a button for someone to come and rescue them?

I believe that Rebel Heart had to choose between abandoning his boat, or abandoning his family. It's too bad that it came to that point, but some damage just can't be undone, and no boat is worth the destruction of your family.