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Old 17-10-2020, 20:14   #46
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Re: Forget Covid, Fukushima is what you should be really worried about

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Well, one reason is that scientific studies usually use really big words, words that don't mean anything to a lay person.

Like in an upthread post, a dose rate of 530 Sieverts/hr is mentioned. To most, that is completely meaningless, even when an unknown authority is said to have called it "unimaginable". Does that mean really high, really low or just that his imagination is feeble? FWIW, that is a high dose rate, but hardly unimaginable in or near the remnants of an aged reactor core.

For studies of aquatic life, the numbers will be really small, bt again, not meaningful to a lay person. That's when journalists start applying spin, depending upon their agendas, and this is one reason that the US population mistrusts "science"... they don't understand it and they get politicized interpretations from the media. Who would trust that crap?

Anyhow, if sailing in the north Pacific is scary to you, well, stay away from it. Not sure where you will go, though, for there are radioactive materials in all the oceans... just as there have always been. Maybe go climbing in the continental mountains, far from those dangerous waters... but up there the cosmic radiation is much higher than at sea level, and if the mountains are granitic, the radiation from radium daughters and a few other naturally occurring isotopes is markedly higher than in coral islands, for instance.

Damn... there's just no escaping it, and for sure, you're gonna die, mate!

Jim

Indeed!
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Old 17-10-2020, 22:01   #47
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Re: Forget Covid, Fukushima is what you should be really worried about

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Mercury accretion in the marine food chain from coal fired power stations is probably a bigger worry.
way bigger
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Old 18-10-2020, 00:50   #48
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Re: Forget Covid, Fukushima is what you should be really worried about

It's been years since I looked at the research and the dumping of water just brought it all back, hence the post - I will not be digging through the internet if you cant be arsed to do it yourself - But its there if you are at all concerned by it.


Really most of you guys & gals have busted blood vessels over this whole covid thing, which is hardly a blip in the road for humanity as far as these things go, yet throw out there something which is polluting the whole North pacific and it's like, whatever, it aint real because I have not seen it in the news every day or on the internet everyday. Well that's some serious Free thinking for you, Not.



You don't even blink that they introduced a state secrecy law in 2013 giving up to 10 years in prison for reporting anything but the official line and don't seem to care that many of the released particles have half lives up to 24,000 years (FYI Radiation poisoning is cumulative and does not kill straight away in small doses). There were 3 meltdowns and they lost 2 cores - This is the biggest nuclear disaster ever and just because they don't report on it you all think its all good.


The point of the post was to actually get you to think and do some research, but as normal its the usual bunch of desktop jockeys shooting off at the hip with the same old stuff.
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Old 18-10-2020, 02:01   #49
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Re: Forget Covid, Fukushima is what you should be really worried about

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. . . The point of the post was to actually get you to think and do some research, . . .
Well you succeeded, and it was useful. I did some reading and enjoyed it. Thanks for posting the topic.

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. . . It's been years since I looked at the research and the dumping of water just brought it all back, hence the post - I will not be digging through the internet if you cant be arsed to do it yourself - But its there if you are at all concerned by it.
Well, I was arsed. Here again is a good survey of the research, which does NOT indeed indicate that there are any terrible effects: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/10/161018141309.htm.
No need to "dig through the Internet"; pretty good summary here.

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Really most of you guys & gals have busted blood vessels over this whole covid thing, which is hardly a blip in the road for humanity as far as these things go, . . .
Here I agree with you.

New York Times reported yesterday that 30 million people in the U.S. have officially descended into poverty because of the lockdowns. How many people will die, how many lives will be shortened and made less fulfilling, by that amount of poverty? Is anyone actually doing any rational analysis of policy?
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Old 18-10-2020, 02:08   #50
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Re: Forget Covid, Fukushima is what you should be really worried about

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Originally Posted by RaymondR View Post
Mercury accretion in the marine food chain from coal fired power stations is probably a bigger worry.
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Originally Posted by jimbunyard View Post
way bigger
"Probably"? https://web.unep.org/globalmercurypa...oal-combustion

2220 tonnes a year of mercury spewed into the atmosphere from coal burning.

https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-s...ury-and-health

Mercury in the water from coal burning affects the health of millions of people. It gets concentrated throught the marine food chain and is found in harmful quantities in different kinds of fish, such as tuna.

It's a huge problem. Tritium in seawater? A zero problem.

One important reason not to freak out and have irrational fear of nuclear power, is that it causes you to do really stupid things like what Germany did, shutting down all their reactors and making up the difference by burning coal , which is devastating to human health and the environment, not to mention global warming. Really dumb.

https://www.gem.wiki/Health_effects_of_coal

There's not even a tradeoff between release of radioactivity and the other damage caused by coal burning. Burning coal releases more harmful radioactive particles in a month, than all the nuclear accidents and tests combined over 50 years.

Coal kills 60 people per TWH of power produced, the most of any energy source. Nuclear power kills 0.06, the least of any energy source. http://nextbigfuture.com/2011/03/dea...gy-source.html
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Old 18-10-2020, 03:09   #51
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Re: Forget Covid, Fukushima is what you should be really worried about

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"Probably"? https://web.unep.org/globalmercurypa...oal-combustion

2220 tonnes a year of mercury spewed into the atmosphere from coal burning.

https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-s...ury-and-health

Mercury in the water from coal burning affects the health of millions of people. It gets concentrated throught the marine food chain and is found in harmful quantities in different kinds of fish, such as tuna.

It's a huge problem. Tritium in seawater? A zero problem.

One important reason not to freak out and have irrational fear of nuclear power, is that it causes you to do really stupid things like what Germany did, shutting down all their reactors and making up the difference by burning coal , which is devastating to human health and the environment, not to mention global warming. Really dumb.

https://www.gem.wiki/Health_effects_of_coal

There's not even a tradeoff between release of radioactivity and the other damage caused by coal burning. Burning coal releases more harmful radioactive particles in a month, than all the nuclear accidents and tests combined over 50 years.

Coal kills 60 people per TWH of power produced, the most of any energy source. Nuclear power kills 0.06, the least of any energy source. Deaths per TWH by energy source | NextBigFuture.com



Nuclear power is great until it isn't.


I watched a very interesting doco a while back about the creation of a think tank for the storage of nuclear waste in the USA - The huge underground bunkers they are building - Part of the think tanks job was to come up with a way of warning our future generations tens of thousands of years down the line when nuclear waste was long forgotten that this was one place they did not want to explore.
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Old 18-10-2020, 04:05   #52
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Re: Forget Covid, Fukushima is what you should be really worried about

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LOL - I think you guys have all missed the point and simply focused on the release of water, the point is that they have lost Nuclear Cores which have breached their containment (AKA Burnt through to the Earth/Groundwater below). Remote control robots sent in last a matter of minutes and "a radiation reading taken deep inside Japan's damaged Fukushima Daiichi nuclear reactor No. 2 shows levels reaching a maximum of 530 sieverts per hour, a number experts have called unimaginable" - Years after the accident.


This has been releasing radioactive particles into the groundwater and ocean for years and as someone else said its the West Coast of the USA that is getting Nuked! But hey the Japanese said they contained all that, so its OK - From memory one thing they tried or were going to try? was to Freeze the entire bedrock/groundwater area to stop the flow - Can't imagine how that would work against an uncontrolled nuclear reaction.



As I said earlier they passed a law with harsh penalties to report ANYTHING but the official line and have in main shunned outside help.


Now if you believe the official line that all is OK there are No bad effects from the accident, good for you, but I for one with many others do not and will not be Cruising or sailing ANYWHERE in the North Pacific and certainly not eating anything that comes from there.


Its pretty easy to find plenty of scientific research undertaken on marine life on the the West Coast of the USA and North Pacific as a whole since the accident with some pretty unpleasant findings - Some even compare pre and post states, you just won't find any of them highlighted in main stream media - Gotta ask yourself why that is.
yes, their news releases on containment is just feel good stuff, like we are doing what we can, we are in control propaganda. Nuclear reactions are very HOT, ice melts, they can not freeze ground under the reactor core, maybe only around a perimeter. Then this reactor is a perpetuity problem as in about forever. But the oceans are really big and deep to compensate. Worse is when your closer to the source. And who knows how much ground water for farms and drinking could become ruined eventually. This is the old melt down possible reactor design made originally to make plutonium for nuclear war. They have safe designs today which can not melt down. So they need to stop building the old style nuclear plants.
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Old 18-10-2020, 04:24   #53
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Re: Forget Covid, Fukushima is what you should be really worried about

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
"Probably"? https://web.unep.org/globalmercurypa...oal-combustion

2220 tonnes a year of mercury spewed into the atmosphere from coal burning.

https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-s...ury-and-health

Mercury in the water from coal burning affects the health of millions of people. It gets concentrated throught the marine food chain and is found in harmful quantities in different kinds of fish, such as tuna.

It's a huge problem. Tritium in seawater? A zero problem.

One important reason not to freak out and have irrational fear of nuclear power, is that it causes you to do really stupid things like what Germany did, shutting down all their reactors and making up the difference by burning coal , which is devastating to human health and the environment, not to mention global warming. Really dumb.

https://www.gem.wiki/Health_effects_of_coal

There's not even a tradeoff between release of radioactivity and the other damage caused by coal burning. Burning coal releases more harmful radioactive particles in a month, than all the nuclear accidents and tests combined over 50 years.

Coal kills 60 people per TWH of power produced, the most of any energy source. Nuclear power kills 0.06, the least of any energy source. Deaths per TWH by energy source | NextBigFuture.com


The thing which I think strange about the Fukishima incident is who puts the emergency generators in the cellar in a plant in a tsunami prone area.
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Old 18-10-2020, 04:27   #54
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Re: Forget Covid, Fukushima is what you should be really worried about

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Nuclear power is great until it isn't.

I watched a very interesting doco a while back about the creation of a think tank for the storage of nuclear waste in the USA - The huge underground bunkers they are building - Part of the think tanks job was to come up with a way of warning our future generations tens of thousands of years down the line when nuclear waste was long forgotten that this was one place they did not want to explore.
So do you think it's better to just spew it out into the atmosphere like we do when we burn coal? And what about climate change? This is really less of a problem than long term storage of nuclear waste?

A permanent nuclear waste disposal facility (100 000 years, long enough for the waste to decay to harmlessness) has already been constructed in Finland and will be operational soon. Another one is under construction in Sweden. See: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/09/s...e-finland.html Does hazardous waste disqualify nuclear energy from our low-carbon-energy future? – GreenBarrel.com

Nuclear waste disposal is a challenge, of course, but it is solvable. The Finns (and the Swedish company which built the Onkalo facility) have done a brilliant job of it, not just the technical side of it, but the social, political, and financial side of it. The facility has been completely paid for by a fund accumulated from a small tax on electrical power, and even with the tax, Finland has the lowest electrical power rate of any European country (other than some of the former Communist states), about half the cost of electrical power in Germany. The local community participated in all stages of decision-making, and is enthusiastically in favor -- no NIMBY factor unlike Yucca Mountain.

Electrical power in Finland is already 90% carbon free, and will be 100% carbon free as soon as Olkiluoto-3, Europe's first third generation nuclear plant (of the European Pressurized Reactor time), comes on line next year, which will take Finland to 60% nuclear power, 40% hydro and renewables, and 0% fossil fuels -- this is the future, people. Sweden gets 40% of its electrical power from nuclear.

Some good reading here: https://ourworldindata.org/safest-sources-of-energy
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Old 18-10-2020, 04:32   #55
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Re: Forget Covid, Fukushima is what you should be really worried about

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Originally Posted by RaymondR View Post


The thing which I think strange about the Fukishima incident is who puts the emergency generators in the cellar in a plant in a tsunami prone area.

Passing time so put in a quick search and came up with the following - Just having some fun with you guys


https://americanfreepress.net/japane...hima-sabotage/
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Old 18-10-2020, 04:43   #56
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Re: Forget Covid, Fukushima is what you should be really worried about

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So do you think it's better to just spew it out into the atmosphere like we do when we burn coal? And what about climate change? This is really less of a problem than long term storage of nuclear waste?

A permanent nuclear waste disposal facility (100 000 years, long enough for the waste to decay to harmlessness) has already been constructed in Finland and will be operational soon. Another one is under construction in Sweden. See: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/09/s...e-finland.html Does hazardous waste disqualify nuclear energy from our low-carbon-energy future? – GreenBarrel.com

Nuclear waste disposal is a challenge, of course, but it is solvable. The Finns (and the Swedish company which built the Onkalo facility) have done a brilliant job of it, not just the technical side of it, but the social, political, and financial side of it. The facility has been completely paid for by a fund accumulated from a small tax on electrical power, and even with the tax, Finland has the lowest electrical power rate of any European country (other than some of the former Communist states), about half the cost of electrical power in Germany. The local community participated in all stages of decision-making, and is enthusiastically in favor -- no NIMBY factor unlike Yucca Mountain.

Electrical power in Finland is already 90% carbon free, and will be 100% carbon free as soon as Olkiluoto-3, Europe's first third generation nuclear plant (of the European Pressurized Reactor time), comes on line next year, which will take Finland to 60% nuclear power, 40% hydro and renewables, and 0% fossil fuels -- this is the future, people. Sweden gets 40% of its electrical power from nuclear.

Some good reading here: https://ourworldindata.org/safest-sources-of-energy

Nuclear should be nothing more than a stop gap - Simple as that.


The Coal industry in Australia strangles alternative energy sources such as solar, wind, tidal, hydro and geo-thermal which has excellent prospects and from memory the coal industry took 80% of the renewable energy government grants to find ways of creating "Clean Coal" - What a joke that is.


You have to remember that the Nuclear industry is very powerful and can and will pull strings to make itself look good and cover up any issues that happen - This is very big business we are talking about here.



Its a perfect industry - They get tax Payer funds to help build the plant, they take the profits from the running of the plant and pass back most of the cost of decommission to the tax payer - Which is HUGE.
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Old 18-10-2020, 04:55   #57
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Re: Forget Covid, Fukushima is what you should be really worried about

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The thing which I think strange about the Fukishima incident is who puts the emergency generators in the cellar in a plant in a tsunami prone area.
There were some design mistakes at Fukushima.

But even so -- we could have a Chernobyl accident every year and nuclear power would still be safer than coal, or a Fukushima accident every month.

And the Third Generation nuclear plants, which have benefited from half a century of experience and a huge amount of engineering work, should be a couple of orders of magnitude safer, than previous plans (3 core damage events per 100 million reactor-years for the ESBWR compared to 1,000 for 2G reactors -- see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_III_reactor). The 3G reactors have extensive passive safety systems which do not rely on pumps or emergency power. The technology is ingenious: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Econom..._Water_Reactor Cooling in case of an accident is entirely passive and automatic -- no electrical power or even operator action is required.
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Old 18-10-2020, 05:09   #58
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Re: Forget Covid, Fukushima is what you should be really worried about

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Nuclear should be nothing more than a stop gap - Simple as that.

Why? Nuclear is a fantastic power source, as safe as wind power, and complementary to wind and solar, which needs an alternative source of base load to deal with fluctuations of output. Nuclear and wind go together like cookies and cream.


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The Coal industry in Australia strangles alternative energy sources such as solar, wind, tidal, hydro and geo-thermal which has excellent prospects and from memory the coal industry took 80% of the renewable energy government grants to find ways of creating "Clean Coal" - What a joke that is.

And nuclear, I guess. Coal is utterly evil and should be banned. Incredibly harmful. Kills more people every year than COVID.


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You have to remember that the Nuclear industry is very powerful and can and will pull strings to make itself look good and cover up any issues that happen - This is very big business we are talking about here.

Its a perfect industry - They get tax Payer funds to help build the plant, they take the profits from the running of the plant and pass back most of the cost of decommission to the tax payer - Which is HUGE.

Nuclear power industry "very powerful"? Is it bigger or more powerful than the coal industry? Or the wind power industry? This makes a plausible-sounding theory, but does not correspond to reality.


Concerning the economics of nuclear power -- if these costs are so huge, then why do those countries with the most nuclear power, have the cheapest electrical power rates? France gets 70% of its power from nuclear, and the French pay €0.19/kWH. Finland gets almost 40% of its power from nuclear, and the Finns pay €0.18. In Denmark and Germany, by contrast, with no nuclear, electrical power costs €0.29.
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Old 18-10-2020, 05:13   #59
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Re: Forget Covid, Fukushima is what you should be really worried about

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Passing time so put in a quick search and came up with the following - Just having some fun with you guys


https://americanfreepress.net/japane...hima-sabotage/

Did you also search who owns this “source” you are citing?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Free_Press
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Old 18-10-2020, 06:07   #60
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Re: Forget Covid, Fukushima is what you should be really worried about

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It's been years since I looked at the research and the dumping of water just brought it all back, hence the post - I will not be digging through the internet if you cant be arsed to do it yourself - But its there if you are at all concerned by it.

Really most of you guys & gals have busted blood vessels over this whole covid thing, which is hardly a blip in the road for humanity as far as these things go, yet throw out there something which is polluting the whole North pacific and it's like, whatever, it aint real because I have not seen it in the news every day or on the internet everyday. Well that's some serious Free thinking for you, Not.

You don't even blink that they introduced a state secrecy law in 2013 giving up to 10 years in prison for reporting anything but the official line and don't seem to care that many of the released particles have half lives up to 24,000 years (FYI Radiation poisoning is cumulative and does not kill straight away in small doses). There were 3 meltdowns and they lost 2 cores - This is the biggest nuclear disaster ever and just because they don't report on it you all think its all good.

The point of the post was to actually get you to think and do some research, but as normal its the usual bunch of desktop jockeys shooting off at the hip with the same old stuff.
I did google it, pubmed search, reviewed Woods Hole's summary. A bunch of nothing.

If it's okay here to say that "the usual bunch of desktop jockeys shooting off at the hip with the same old stuff" then I'd respond in kind that these kinds of threads bring out the same myopic loon theories that demonstrate at best an elementary understanding of science and history coupled with, per routine, conspiracy theories to fill in the gaps of knowledge. It's one thing to say "I think this is concerning" and quite another to say "this is the worst ever, but go look for yourself."

We ought not worry about Covid having the effect of at least closing down schools as some here have no respect for what education teaches about history, science, economics, and so-forth. It seems that the larger the boat, the more relative economic freedom one has, the more Marie Antoinette and/or conspiracy-minded one becomes. After all, if such wonky thinking afforded a nice boat and free time, what's the biological impulse that would encourage one to thinking differently? Free-riders gonna be free-riders and the Fukushima alert isn't contributing.
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