Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

[beiland]

Originally Posted by steve.garlick

Thought I'd offer a different point of view. After a history of being dedicated multihullers (my wife and I raced a Nacra 5.8, sailed several Farrier tri's ), we bought a 44' Chamberlain cat as our first cruising boat. It was a disaster on many levels. It was too big for my wife and I to easily handle, it cost a fortune to haul and dock fees were high. It required way too much maintenance, and while being fast, it was unenjoyable to sail. It felt like sailing a truck, with no feel of 'being in the groove'. We sold it after 6 months, realising we'd bought the wrong boat for us.

We also realised that the smallest boat you can live aboard is the best for many reasons (we are retiree's on a limited budget). We have now been living in the Med for 2 years on a 40' mono. We love the boat, it is a cruising classic (A Bowman 40). It has impeccable sea-worthiness and is a delight to sail. We can get it into and out of the small harbours, ports and anchorages here. We've sailed in horrible conditions (50 knot meltemi winds with short 4m chop) and the boat has handled it impeccably.

We've also done a delivery in a Lagoon 40'. I would NEVER want to go back to a cat like that. The motion in a reasonable MEd chop was horrible, it wallowed and pounded like a pig. The interior fit out was cheap and nasty.

I know there are some great cat's being built now, but I have adapted completely to mono's. The boat has a small footprint, I feel totally safe with the seaworthiness of the boat, and feel comfortable in high winds at anchor and port.

Each to his own, but the OP was asking about people who 'went back'. We did, and we're happy we did.

Steve
S/V Pavlov

Interesting posting. I'll add to it eventually, so I wanted to bring it forward in the discussion.

[beiland]

Boy was this a LONG subject thread,...I never thought I would reach the end.

I sure wish there had been this many multihull converts when I entered the business. It was like pulling teeth to get people to look at multihulls. I brought the first Dragonfly tri into the Annapolis boat show in 1986, and the first Fountain/Pajot cat (the Louisiane 37) in 1987. Prior to that we were the largest Stiletto dealers and we represented some of the English catamarans imported by a few other folks. Multihull marketing was very tough at the time.

Now if I had the money I'd own a big cat like this:



or perhaps one of my own designs:


RunningTideYachts, Ltd. - Multihulled expeditionary yachts of distinction and a wonderful combination of sail & power to take you anywhere in the world, swiftly, economically, and in style.

But then again I am not totally married to the multihull world as much as I do like them....next posting

[beiland]

Here is the monohull type I would consider,....a beautiful 44 motorsailer by Phillip Rhodes


......with a nice size aft deck, a flying bridge, a big saloon up at eye level, and accommodations just right for a couple, and with occasional guest strm, or even conversion of the saloon seating on occasion. Nice strong single engine design for economy of build and ease of maintenance.

There were only two of these built originally, back when fiberglass was in its infancy.
I want to 'redesign' this vessel to be built in a frameless steel hull construction, and polycore decks and superstructure. Maybe offer 3 different rig variations.

A steel hull would be very comforting to those long range cruisers headed out to reef strewn places, and can be quite economical to build these days compared to composite hulls.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by colemj

A couple of points, though.

You were the one that brought the V440 into the discussion, then pivoted to a new model when it was convenient for you to make a different point.

To be pleasant I would attribute that statement to a lousy memory

It was you that brought current models into play and it was referring current models that you said:

Originally Posted by colemj

...
I promise you that the current line of FP and Leopard cats will out-perform the current line of Voyage cats. ...

Originally Posted by colemj

You really do not understand catamaran design. ... Again, have you actually seen a new Leopard out of the water? You keep going on about "fineness", which I assume you mean hull L/B. The Leopard has a chine to knockout room above the waterline. Below the water, it is surprisingly fine with a very modern rocker and run design.

Fineness, is this (in French) - Finesse ratio:

Hydrostatique

No, it is not hull L/B it is much more precise and complex.

Yes, I have seen a Leopard 44 hull, yes the chine helps to diminish very slightly the beam at WL but just some centimeters. The fineness has only to do with WL beam. The one of the Voyage 450 is much smaller (even consider the chines) and has also a much finer entries (the forward underwater part of the hull).







and it really seems that sometimes your opinions are exaggerated. You said about the Voyage 440:

Originally Posted by colemj

..
... Even in calmer conditions those boats sound like bombs are going off under them. Friends of ours with one complain that their feet hurt from the pounding and they can't stand in the cockpit or saloon when going up wind.

and later said about the same boat:

Originally Posted by colemj

...
I have sailed and have experiences with this boat, thus I have my opinions about it. What is a "little wave slap" to you may be quite abnormal to me and, frankly, this boat is a slammer. But it isn't dangerous or any real problem, just one of those many characteristics of boats that vary among them in ways that require tradeoffs and decisions. To decrease bridgedeck noise, you would have a narrower beam and higher boat. Both of those have tradeoffs you may not like. ..

What really seemed to be a terrible design characteristic (sound like bombs are going off under them. Friends of ours with one complain that their feet hurt from the pounding and they can't stand in the cockpit or saloon when going up wind) is after all just a trade off with advantages also (lower CG) and if the disadvantages were so bad as you say, to the point of be impossible to stand up in the boat upwind, nobody would want that boat.

Those owners of a Voyage 400 again say it an a way that seems correct to me:

"Does the bridge deck slap or pound? Yes, again under certain circumstances. Like the high speed bursts, the weather situation has to be just right for this to occur. Despite what some brokers and dealers will tell you, ALL CATS POUND under these conditions. Some cats, with lower bridge decks, will just start a bit sooner. What is important is that most catamaran manufactures accept this as a fact of life and build heavy reinforcement into the bridge deck. It is also interesting to note that mono hulls also pound in heavy seas when going to weather. It is not quite as loud as they pound only on the lee side of the hull while healed over. "

Our Boat

and I bet "caradow" would not have said this: "Oh yea one more thing after falling off waves in monohulls for years a little wave slap to me is very tolerable." if he could not stand up in the saloon when the boat is sailing upwind.

Originally Posted by colemj

I wasn't bashing the boat - I was contesting it being a "performance" catamaran, which you seem very enamored with.

No, you are wrong personally I have not any interest in that kind of boat but I have in boat design and I try to be objective. Personally if I could I would have a Dragonfly 35 or a Farrier 39 trimarans, both more uncomfortable in several ways, wet and faster boats and that would not pound less since pounding has also a lot to do with the speed. All boats are compromises, I like to have fun sailing and I am not yet old enough to be wise

[beiland]

Here is another very similar design monohull I could live with, a beautiful Alden design with those same attributes as that Rhodes I posted....just a little larger.






This vessel could have twins, but why when there are good bow thrusters out there these days. Good big single 6-cylinder is less expensive to purchase, and easier to maintain.

[beiland]

Originally Posted by beiland

Here is the monohull type I would consider,....a beautiful 44 motorsailer by Phillip Rhodes
http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/at...r-44-ad-ps-jpg

......with a nice size aft deck, a flying bridge, a big saloon up at eye level, and accommodations just right for a couple, and with occasional guest strm, or even conversion of the saloon seating on occasion. Nice strong single engine design for economy of build and ease of maintenance.

There were only two of these built originally, back when fiberglass was in its infancy.
I want to 'redesign' this vessel to be built in a frameless steel hull construction, and polycore decks and superstructure. Maybe offer 3 different rig variations.

A steel hull would be very comforting to those long range cruisers headed out to reef strewn places, and can be quite economical to build these days compared to composite hulls.

Another link to a few other postings I have made on this design

YachtForums.Com - View Single Post - Motor Sailers by Philip Rhodes & John Alden

Motor Sailers by Philip Rhodes & John Alden - Page 8 - YachtForums.Com

[Polux]

Originally Posted by beiland

Here is another very similar design monohull I could live with, a beautiful Alden design with those same attributes as that Rhodes I posted....just a little larger.
Attachment 80985

Attachment 80986

Attachment 80987

This vessel could have twins, but why when there are good bow thrusters out there these days. Good big single 6-cylinder is less expensive to purchase, and easier to maintain.

Kind of interesting that you consider or a cat or a slow monohull motorsailor. If you want a boat that will motor almost all the time why not a motor cat? Probably you would spend less money in diesel then with the heavier monohull motorsailor, sails and all.

[beiland]

Originally Posted by thinwater

In my wife's case .... Another thing that is very important to her, and I believe helps all people, is being able to see the horizon; either being on-deck or in a raised salon helps. In fact, she can't handle cats with cabins forward (no forward view) or monohulls with salons below.....

I’ve written in the past;
“One particular design has haunted me for years. It was I think a Phil Rhodes design somewhere around 60'~70', a ketch, with a sizable twin engine room, over which was located a grand main saloon with portlights above deck level. This main saloon had great comfort and expansive vista's, and opened onto a sizable aft deck with a fishing chair at its center. There was even a mini-flybridge helm station and a crow's nest. What a great all-around design to liveaboard and travel the world. She could do anything and everything!! I have in 30 years only seen one or two comparable designs, and sadly I lost those clippings and the pictures of the original design, but the concept has remained with me all these years.”


Motor Sailers by Philip Rhodes & John Alden - YachtForums.Com

[beiland]

Originally Posted by Polux

Kind of interesting that you consider or a cat or a slow monohull motorsailor. If you want a boat that will motor almost all the time why not a motor cat? Probably you would spend less money in diesel then with the heavier monohull motorsailor, sails and all.

Don't know that I fully understand what you are saying?

Pure power vessels are not for crossing oceans.

[SaltyMonkey]

Try to find one for sale:

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1966.../United-States

[SaltyMonkey]

Originally Posted by beiland

Pure power vessels are not for crossing oceans.

Really?

Welcome to Nordhavn.com - Power Thats Oceans Apart

Really?

Welcome to Nordhavn.com - Power Thats Oceans Apart

Really?

http://www.nordhavn.com/news/article..._June_2009.pdf

[TeddyDiver]

A bit drift
There are many much much better passagemakers than Nordhavns. Pigs IMHO
Sorry owners

[SaltyMonkey]

Originally Posted by TeddyDiver

A bit drift
There are many much much better passagemakers than Nordhavns. Pigs IMHO
Sorry owners

And...thats it? That's your answer? Show me the money.

[weavis]

Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey

And...thats it? That's your answer? Show me the money.

Mine Salty..

[Polux]

Originally Posted by beiland

Don't know that I fully understand what you are saying?

Pure power vessels are not for crossing oceans.

And who talked about crossing the Atlantic? You talked about long range cruising, that does not mean necessarily crossing the Atlantic, even if there are some motorboats on the range of that Phil Rhodes 60/70 ft that can and do it and sailors doing it.

Recently a multihull motorboat had done that. This modern 60ft cat was designed for that (solar assisted):

L'actualité de Multicoques Mag - Un 60' expédition à moteur

Heliotrope Solar Assisted Yacht - YouTube