Do Multihullers Ever go Back?

[w32honu]

Speaking of repairs…….

Are haul out facilities an issue? Across the Pacific there are very few yards capable of hauling a large multi. Depending on your cruising plans….. Is that enough to persuade someone to consider a monohull?…….if not just for awhile.?????

As I understand it……even the eastern seaboard of the U.S. is a challenge, depending on your beam.

[Factor]

Plenty of Beaches

[w32honu]

Originally Posted by Factor

Plenty of Beaches

I hear you…….

And I am all for it…..

Just sometimes the beach might not do.

[tomfl]

Originally Posted by w32honu

Speaking of repairs…….

Are haul out facilities an issue? Across the Pacific there are very few yards capable of hauling a large multi. Depending on your cruising plans….. Is that enough to persuade someone to consider a monohull?…….if not just for awhile.?????

As I understand it……even the eastern seaboard of the U.S. is a challenge, depending on your beam.

This is one of the biggest mistakes lots of folks make. So many people buy a boat with the idea of circumnavigation by rounding both of the great capes and winds up maybe going to the Keys or Bahamas in the winter and anchoring in Georgetown a month for every day spent sailing. Plenty of folks then pull their boat for the summer at a yard in Florida and spend the hot months in cooler climates.

Buying a boat based on available yards in the South Pacific that can haul it seems a little anal retentive to me.

[colemj]

Originally Posted by Polux

What is called a performance boat varies with the intention: Racing, cruising/racing or just cruising. The voyage catamarans are long range cruising cats and in that respect they are performance cats and that's what their shipyard considers them:

"VOYAGE yachts, manufacturers of multiple award winning sailing catamarans, boasts its product range as luxurious, stylish, elegant and as performance cruising vessels. "

Being performance or not, like on monohulls, will result of a comparison of their performance with the one that is the typical on the main market cats and by far the most sold cruising cats, voyage or otherwise are the Lagoon, Fountain-Pajot, Leopard type.

Those cats for a 44 ft size have typically about 12000kgof weight and a sail area of about 86m2.

The boat that on Voyage yachts substituted the 440 weights 9200kg and has 105m2 of sail area.

In what regards performance sail area is not all, finesse is also very important and if we compare the beam (and finesse) of the Voyage 440 and a Lagoon 440 (or any similar boat among the best selling in this size) we can see a huge difference (the Lagoon 440 is the beamier one).





Yes I think that comparing the Voyage catamarans performance with the typical mass production cruising cats, the ones that overwhelmingly dominate the market, the shipyard can justifiably call it a performance cruiser.

You seem to consider performance cats the only ones that are suitable for racing and are used for racing and cruising, but today when we talk a bout a performance cruiser (in market terms) it does not mean that it is suitable for racing but that is a lot more fast than the average main market cruising boats of the same size and certainly the Voyage yachts are. There are many performance monohull cruisers that are not intended or designed for racing as there are on the same category of performance cruisers many multihulls.

Let me state up front that I have actually sailed these boats we are discussing. A disclaimer I would like to see from others who have such ingrained knowledge and opinions on them.

PT Barnum would love how the manufacturers list displacements on their boats and how the consumers eat it up.

He would also love how you label the V440 as a performance cruiser using the marketing description from their website as your sole "fact".

I don't understand your definition as any boat designed for long-range cruising being de facto a performance cruiser. The list of boats negating that reasoning is longer than the internet.

I promise you that the current line of FP and Leopard cats will out-perform the current line of Voyage cats. Don't believe me - just please go sail on them before making your claims. Yes, the current Lagoons are heavy slugs, but past models would at least match the V440 performance.

And if Baldwin thought that Dean rattled his teeth off, he has not experienced a V440 in rougher conditions. Even in calmer conditions those boats sound like bombs are going off under them. Friends of ours with one complain that their feet hurt from the pounding and they can't stand in the cockpit or saloon when going up wind.

I don't consider racing boats at all when considering "performance". While boats can certainly be raced, examples like 44CC's boat, the Catana 43/47, LeRouge's Brazappi and Freydis, Schionning's Waterline, White's Atlantics, Free Flow 46, etc are full-on cruising boats with quite a bit of performance.

Below this line are just cruising cats. I won't enter the debate about what constitutes a "condomaran" because I think that is derogative, uninformed and know from experience that these "condomarans" are at least keeping pace, and almost always out-performing, the main types of cruising monohulls out here - Formosa's and their copies, Liberties, Westsails, Tayanas, etc.

Once again I make this Quixotic plea - please actually have some experience or direct knowledge about these boats that one is speaking on with such expertise. Will anyone here step up and describe their experiences? I must be on ignore, because no one seems to pay any attention to this request and keep on like it has never been made.

Mark

[colemj]

Originally Posted by w32honu

Speaking of repairs…….

Are haul out facilities an issue? Across the Pacific there are very few yards capable of hauling a large multi. Depending on your cruising plans….. Is that enough to persuade someone to consider a monohull?…….if not just for awhile.?????

As I understand it……even the eastern seaboard of the U.S. is a challenge, depending on your beam.

Yes, haulout is a very real consideration when buying a catamaran. I personally would not count on a beach for much except emergency or very rapid, routine inspection/maintenance. First, many cats are not really made for beaching and the act of beaching one that is made for it is fraught with perils. Second, in many places, you will have difficulty finding a suitable beach or a tide that allows beaching. The entire Caribbean, for example.

However, we have never had a problem with haulouts. They do have to be planned - we can never just think "I want to haul out now" and then drive up to Billy-Bob's local dilapidated marina and haul.

Many, many places are building travelift or hydraulic trailer facilities that can handle large beam boats as fast as they can. Catamarans are extremely popular and their needs are being accommodated. For example, in the Rio Dulce Guatemala this year, there are now three facilities that can haul catamarans - two of them have no beam restrictions, while the other is only good for 23'. We have friends hauled out on the South Pacific, so facilities also exist there. It will soon be just a wive's tale that it is difficult to haul a catamaran. But it will never be generally such that Billy-Bob can handle you on a minute's notice. On the other hand, it will never be generally such that a monohull can just drive up on a beach.

Mark

[tomfl]

Originally Posted by colemj

SNIP

I won't enter the debate about what constitutes a "condomaran"

SNIP

I will.

Any cat less than sixty feet with four heads or more is a condomaran.

I live on a Seawind with a squaretop and screecher and out sail most of the boats in the harbor. Exceptions are Chris White cats, a St. Francis, some Shuttleworths, and of course the Fboats (but they don't count).

For you guys with lots of experience do you think a Lagoon, FP, whatever is more of a performance boat than say a Gemini or 8M Catalac, or even a larger Catalac.

[w32honu]

Originally Posted by tomfl

This is one of the biggest mistakes lots of folks make. So many people buy a boat with the idea of circumnavigation by rounding both of the great capes and winds up maybe going to the Keys or Bahamas in the winter and anchoring in Georgetown a month for every day spent sailing. Plenty of folks then pull their boat for the summer at a yard in Florida and spend the hot months in cooler climates.

Buying a boat based on available yards in the South Pacific that can haul it seems a little anal retentive to me.

Tom. Did not say that i was buying a boat. Already own a boat that i cruise far and wide. A mono. Also own a brand new set of plans for a Marples CC tri. So for me it will be a custom build.

Still does not negate the lack of good yards available for multis.

Cheers

[tomfl]

Originally Posted by w32honu

SNIP

Still does not negate the lack of good yards available for multis.

SNIP

My point was that there are a lot of places to haul multihulls in my part of the world. There are also lots of multihulls in my part of the world.

I ascribe this to what economists call the law of supply and demand. Places like Florida where there are lots of multihulls create a demand for yards that can haul multihulls and businessmen build those yards to meet the supply.

Places like the South Pacific with less demand have less supply.

[deckofficer]

I would like to learn from this thread. Posters like tomfl and others that have fast, light multis, what is your motion like in big seas?

I've only had one boat that I cruised, a Cal 40. Before I purchased it I had what I thought knowledgeable folks tell me that old race boats wouldn't make a good cruiser. I'm glad they were wrong.

If I return to cruising at a later date, I'm considering a race multi converted to a cruiser since the Cal 40 made such a good (but spartan) cruiser.

There is a Formula 40 cat that has been converted to a fast cruiser. 3' was added to her waterline to accommodate the added weight of a bridge structure. Even so it is still a flyweight at 3000 kg @ 43'. Hull efficiency is such that max motoring speed is 10.5 kt using a pair of 9.9 hp outboards. Design and build was by Adrian Tompson and first owner was Francis Joyon.

OK all you folks that have sailing experience in light and fast multis like tomfl and others, your thoughts and ideas please.

[geoleo]

Originally Posted by w32honu

Speaking of repairs…….

Are haul out facilities an issue? Across the Pacific there are very few yards capable of hauling a large multi. Depending on your cruising plans….. Is that enough to persuade someone to consider a monohull?…….if not just for awhile.?????

As I understand it……even the eastern seaboard of the U.S. is a challenge, depending on your beam.

Huge issue-add docks to that.

[SaltyMonkey]

Lets discuss the TRUTH:

There are only 261 Cats for sale on YW today in the USA
There are 7,964 sailing craft.
That leaves 7,964 - 261 = 7,703 other choices.

There are only 32 cats under 100,000 $

The question isn't returning, its entering.

[smj]

Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey

Lets discuss the TRUTH:

There are only 261 Cats for sale on YW today in the USA
There are 7,964 sailing craft.
That leaves 7,964 - 261 = 7,703 other choices.

There are only 32 cats under 100,000 $

The question isn't returning, its entering.

Since the topic is multihulls, there are 392 multihulls for sale in the states. And I don't think the thread is location restricted to the US?


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[smj]

Originally Posted by colemj

Let me state up front that I have actually sailed these boats we are discussing. A disclaimer I would like to see from others who have such ingrained knowledge and opinions on them.



PT Barnum would love how the manufacturers list displacements on their boats and how the consumers eat it up.



He would also love how you label the V440 as a performance cruiser using the marketing description from their website as your sole "fact".



I don't understand your definition as any boat designed for long-range cruising being de facto a performance cruiser. The list of boats negating that reasoning is longer than the internet.



I promise you that the current line of FP and Leopard cats will out-perform the current line of Voyage cats. Don't believe me - just please go sail on them before making your claims. Yes, the current Lagoons are heavy slugs, but past models would at least match the V440 performance.



And if Baldwin thought that Dean rattled his teeth off, he has not experienced a V440 in rougher conditions. Even in calmer conditions those boats sound like bombs are going off under them. Friends of ours with one complain that their feet hurt from the pounding and they can't stand in the cockpit or saloon when going up wind.



I don't consider racing boats at all when considering "performance". While boats can certainly be raced, examples like 44CC's boat, the Catana 43/47, LeRouge's Brazappi and Freydis, Schionning's Waterline, White's Atlantics, Free Flow 46, etc are full-on cruising boats with quite a bit of performance.



Below this line are just cruising cats. I won't enter the debate about what constitutes a "condomaran" because I think that is derogative, uninformed and know from experience that these "condomarans" are at least keeping pace, and almost always out-performing, the main types of cruising monohulls out here - Formosa's and their copies, Liberties, Westsails, Tayanas, etc.



Once again I make this Quixotic plea - please actually have some experience or direct knowledge about these boats that one is speaking on with such expertise. Will anyone here step up and describe their experiences? I must be on ignore, because no one seems to pay any attention to this request and keep on like it has never been made.



Mark

The length of waterline to beam ratio of 8.71 for the Voyage 440 tells me it's no performance cat.


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[SaltyMonkey]

the USA I use as a sample of logistics. If I'm looking for a used boat, I'm not flying to 50,000 miles to look for one. I'm looking in a house near me. So, obviously, I have many more choices in other boats.

btw those < 100000 cats looked like junk.

I don't count the tris:
93
71 < 100,000 $

since the focus tended to turn into cats on this thread.

sad aint it?