Do Hunters Make Good Bluewater / Liveaboard Boats ?

[Bash]

Originally Posted by Ex-Calif

God that would be freakin' awesome!

Steaks for me and my crew and humble pie for the IOR guy...

When I traded in my Hunter 410 for the Hunter 46LE, I decided to race her a few times before I started adding all the cruising gear just to see how she stacked up. I'm Faculty Advisor for the university sailing team, so I was able to recruit some fairly capable winch monkeys. At my club, the beer-can races average 25-30 boats per week. We entered the new boat in five races, and won three of them. That's with OEM sails.

One night back in the yacht club after one of those victories, a buddy of mine who has raced three Singlehanded Transpacks, winning that race once on corrected time, accused me of never racing the H46LE unless it was going to be high winds and huge chop when I could waterline all the smaller boats. I responded by saying, "Oh, was it choppy tonight? We didn't notice."

Freeboard is not always a bad thing.

[S/V Illusion]

Originally Posted by Polux

Racers or anybody that wants to go fast only will sail near DDW on very few cases and always with lots of wind. With weak or medium winds you will lose time. This explains why:

That is why sailing DDW is unacceptable in racing. I wonder if the person who disputed this will acknowledge his error?

[Ex-Calif]

Originally Posted by Bash

When I traded in my Hunter 410 for the Hunter 46LE, I decided to race her a few times before I started adding all the cruising gear just to see how she stacked up. I'm Faculty Advisor for the university sailing team, so I was able to recruit some fairly capable winch monkeys. At my club, the beer-can races average 23-30 boats per week. We entered the new boat in five races, and won three of them. That's with OEM sails.

One night back in the club after one of those victories, a buddy of mine who has raced three Singlehanded Transpacks, winning that race once on corrected time, accused me of never racing the H46LE unless it was going to be high winds and huge chop when I could waterline all the smaller boats. I responded by saying, "Oh, was it choppy tonight? We didn't notice."

Freeboard is not always a bad thing.

We developed a pretty cool system for adjusting handicaps.

If you win you subtract 2 points. If you get second you subtract one point. At the end of a series some handicaps were permanently changed if it was clear the base handicap was too favorable or unfavorable. Everyone else goes back to baseline.

It never stopped the bitching but at least if someone cherry picked races his handicap went down over time. The idea was to get different winners over time.

Unfortunately it wasn't perfect for everyone. We used to podium a lot with our high handicap. Our permament handicap was adjusted from 95 to 89. 6 minutes over 100! The maxi has had a 95 baseline in Singapore for 30 years! We didn't always win but did in strong conditions. And we never lost to a maxi 77, ever. The guys with racing boats bitched a lot especially the J24 sailors with a 75 handicap. It's pretty tough for my boat to be within 20 minutes every hour and forty but 14 minutes? Ain't happening.

So not being happy with 6s and 7s we stopped racing my boat. To make a point I rented a J24 and beat the fleet (got lucky) including a couple of j24 owners who had been bitching. I told the commodore we are supposed to be handicapping boats not crews...

(OK that was pretty whiney...)

[four winds]

I almost understand this diagram.

But someone tell me the difference between the black lines and the red lines. please.

I see the points of sail, wind speed, and boat speed relationship.

But it looks like two sets of data to me. One black and one red.

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by tropicalescape

You tell um!the nerve of that guy...DVC

I don't always FOLLOW all the advice I receive, but I do appreciate it!

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by capn_billl

There it is.

Pick the boat you want. Have it surveyed. Determine stability, and capsize ratio on the boat you pick. Plan storm tactics for the degree of weather YOU plan to sail in. Then do it.

And as the title says, if you're going to live on it, consider how "live-able" it is.

I think my Hunter excels there. It's dry (important); and sitting in the cabin you have a lot of head room. You don't feel all closed in. It has plenty of storage space, especially if you use the aft berth for storage, as I do -- I call it my basement.

The cockpit is spacious, and since it has a wheel, I don't have a tiller interfering with its use as living space, which it is nearly all the year here. I had Pfifertex netting put up all around. The cats spend much of their time up there and often meow for me to come up and join them if I'm in the cabin.

At 31' and tender I don't consider it a good bluewater boat for me, but that isn't what I was looking for. I do like a boat that will take off like a shot when the sails are set right. Makes me all full of myself.

The quality of the design of the living space was a major factor for me. It has two sets of shelves, and I made cloth "snap panels to close them off completely when sailing so Sir Isaac Newton doesn't toss all my belongings all over the boat when I heel. I use the space under the nav table for storage and the nav table is just part of my galley.

It suits me well for living aboard, and it's fun to sail. Those were my two major criteria.

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by Bash

I would question the veracity of that failure rate. Rudders on Hunters are made by Foss Foam, which supplies rudders for a large number of manufacturers. It's illogical that these rudders would break more on Hunters than on the boats of other manufacturers.

I knew Mike Harker, and I've sailed with him on the boat that lost the rudder during his first circumnavigation. That boat was a sister ship of my boat, by the way. Hunter had gone to composite shafts on that model, and the engineers rated them stronger than stainless steel. Unfortunately, a couple boats lost these rudders, and Hunter went back to a stainless shaft on later models (including mine.)

I can't say that it's 4% across the board, but it's 100% for me.

I ran aground some weeks ago with the tide going out and near a channel. I was afraid a strong wake would bang my boat around and break the rudder, so when I couldn't get off, I called Boat US. The towboat towed my boat across a shallow sandbar ... and broke the rudder.

When it was removed, it was quite obvious that the rudder was seriously compromised before that incident. The metal shaft was seriously rusted. It wasn't a matter of IF that rudder was going to snap, but when. Far better that it happened with a towboat already there, than, say ... in a storm.

The post rusted from the inside out. We couldn't determine how salt water got in there, but something caused that metal to rust and fail. I didn't have the quality of the stainless analyzed. That rudder lasted 29 years, and since I'm 66 and don't expect to be still sailing this boat in 29 years, I'm not worried about it, but it does make me wonder about the quality of the stainless that was originally used.

[Ex-Calif]

Originally Posted by Rakuflames

I can't say that it's 4% across the board, but it's 100% for me.

I ran aground some weeks ago with the tide going out and near a channel. I was afraid a strong wake would bang my boat around and break the rudder, so when I couldn't get off, I called Boat US. The towboat towed my boat across a shallow sandbar ... and broke the rudder.

When it was removed, it was quite obvious that the rudder was seriously compromised before that incident. The metal shaft was seriously rusted. It wasn't a matter of IF that rudder was going to snap, but when. Far better that it happened with a towboat already there, than, say ... in a storm.

The post rusted from the inside out. We couldn't determine how salt water got in there, but something caused that metal to rust and fail. I didn't have the quality of the stainless analyzed. That rudder lasted 29 years, and since I'm 66 and don't expect to be still sailing this boat in 29 years, I'm not worried about it, but it does make me wonder about the quality of the stainless that was originally used.

This is a joke right?

You aren't seriously going to bash a 29 year old rudder as a design, material or manufacturing problem are you?

If no one looked at that rudder at least every 2-3 years, someone needs a boat maintenance ass whipping...

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by Ex-Calif

This is a joke right?

You aren't seriously going to bash a 29 year old rudder as a design, material or manufacturing problem are you?

If no one looked at that rudder at least every 2-3 years, someone needs a boat maintenance ass whipping...

I didn't bash anything, and the guy before me did deserve an ass whippin' regarding maintenance. I did not know to check the rudder, and to spot this particular problem, it would have had to be removed, and a rag pushed down the post to find the rust. It was 6 feet down the tube.

Now, I don't know everything, that's for sure, but I've done a lot of reading and talked to a lot of experienced sailors, and I've never heard of anyone doing that.

And, I didn't trash anything. I said MY rudder was compromised and MY rudder broke under strain.

What I DID say was that I don't understand why it rusted in that spot. I have personally met the owner of Foss Foam and he made a very good impression, but the broken rudder was made 29 years ago. I didn't say anything negative about Foss Foam, nor would I. Please don't put words in my mouth. Thanks.

[Ex-Calif]

Originally Posted by Rakuflames

I didn't bash anything, and the guy before me did deserve an ass whippin' regarding maintenance. I did not know to check the rudder, and to spot this particular problem, it would have had to be removed, and a rag pushed down the post to find the rust. It was 6 feet down the tube.

Now, I don't know everything, that's for sure, but I've done a lot of reading and talked to a lot of experienced sailors, and I've never heard of anyone doing that.

And, I didn't trash anything. I said MY rudder was compromised and MY rudder broke under strain.

What I DID say was that I don't understand why it rusted in that spot. I have personally met the owner of Foss Foam and he made a very good impression, but the broken rudder was made 29 years ago. I didn't say anything negative about Foss Foam, nor would I. Please don't put words in my mouth. Thanks.

Firstly - in a sub-thread about "unexplained" rudder and keel losses at sea, you post about a perfectly explainable maintenance and operation related rudder failure that hs nothing to do with rudder design or materials.

30 year old gudgeons and pintles on the "sturdiest" of boats need maintenance.

I like many of your posts but you tend to have an external locus of control. The PO doesn't deserve an ass whipping. It is your boat and you are responsible for its safety and maintenance regardless of history. In two posts your stated the PO is responsible for your unmaintainedd rudder and the tow company is responsible for breaking it off when they towed it off a sandbar.

You got it on the sandbar, you should have not presumed a 30 year old hollow rudder shaft is in good shape. And yes getting access to stuff that should be inspected every "30" years is difficult.

And not putting words in your mouth but you stated something like, "it does make me wonder anout the quality of stainless that was used."

Wonder no more! That stainless was awesome!

I hope you have checked all the other 30 y/o stainless on your boat...

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by four winds

But it looks like two sets of data to me. One black and one red.

Reckon black with jib and red with gennaker.. anyway different sails.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by four winds

I almost understand this diagram.

But someone tell me the difference between the black lines and the red lines. please.

I see the points of sail, wind speed, and boat speed relationship.

But it looks like two sets of data to me. One black and one red.

This is the Polar of a good performance cruiser that is also used for club racing, the Elan 380. Notice that the black lines only go till 120º, than its time to hoist downwind sails, the geenaker or the spinaker

Manuel

[Polux]

Originally Posted by S/V Illusion

That is why sailing DDW is unacceptable in racing. ..

I don't think it is only in racing, it is just good sailing. Nobody likes to be unnecessarily slow. As I see it the difference between cruisers and racers is that while a racer knows exactly for a given wind speed what the downwind wing angle he was to do for the best velocity made good in a run, for a cruiser it is more or less on the right spot.

They don' even have to experiment with the boat because for handicapping the boat for serious racing that has already been made and it is an information that is on the ORC international certificate. Have a look at one from a 2001 Benetau Oceanis 393 that is a cruiser and a boat that is perhaps just a little faster than a Hunter of the same size, but pretty close:

http://www.cvpa.es/files/rating_banff.PDF

The relevant information is here:



You can see that on a dead run the best VMG varies with the wind speed and has this values for TW:

For 6K - 143.3º..... For 12K -159.6º..... For 20K - 174.2º

Most cruisers just point the boat between 160º if the wind is medium and 170º if the wind is strong, True wind of course.

Manuel

[four winds]

Originally Posted by TeddyDiver

Reckon black with jib and red with gennaker.. anyway different sails.

Thanks, I see that now. The black lines are on the wind and the red are off the wind.

Should have been able to see that, but just never studied one of these diagrams yet.

And thanks to you, Polux, as well for the clarification.

So, just for fun I'll search for the polar diagram of my boat.

[Dkdoyle]

Originally Posted by zeehag

dont forget to learn to sail also.. helps just a lil bit.

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