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Old 09-03-2021, 05:17   #16
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Re: Disputing Boatyard Charges

I think one way to look at it as this - Was the work done legit? Would you have done the work yourself had you known upfront? If you would have done the work yourself than you should be pissed. But it looks like the job was a real bitch and was going to take someone some real time to get it done + a travelift.
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Old 09-03-2021, 05:26   #17
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Re: Disputing Boatyard Charges

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The explanation was complications with coupler and removing screws and that it was seized, etc. Also, problems dropping the rudder because of seized quadrant. I understand that there can be unseens in work performed....but I was initially charged 44 hours labor + sub charge of 335 to remove quadrant. They reduced the hours to 33 and the sub amount stayed the same.

Below is the job desc:

coupler socket head screws are stripped out; spec & order; remove old shaft seal; install new; coupler is mounted to transmission; get cap screws for coupler; correctly mount coupler; begin new shaft install - can't install shaft without dropping the rudder; try other routes - shaft won't fit; remove mounting hardware & cables to drop rudder; will need to lift vessel up on slings to get rudder down far enough to install shaft; use portapower to relieve pressure off shaft pins to remove rudder - bottom pin through shaft is free to move, top pin it sticking; spray stuck pin with WD40 to help loosen up; got pin 90% extracted - had to use air hammer to get movement; need to get a different extension to get pin out to drop the rudder; drop ruddercap screw broke off head on quadrant; attempts to remove screw- will need to be sent out to get drilled out; install shaft & rudder; install quadrant on rudder; adjust rudder cables; op test-sat
I don't know. As someone who (last year) used to write-up work orders and explain them to owners, this looks to me to be one of those jobs that the repair has needed to be done for a LONG time. All the various seized screws, the seized quadrant and one needing to be drilled out are a tell-tale in itself. "Correctly mount coupler" means that it was incorrectly mounted originally. (Did you do that or was it the previous owner?) Plus all of the extensive steps that needed to be taken before they could get to the actual job.

They had to even get the boat into slings at one point to get the height to drop the rudder, also indicating a cascading level of increasing difficulty at what (might have) originally been expected to be a straightforward job...

To me, it reads that this yard was attempting to do a very good repair, not a slap-dash job. (I mean, ultimately, any yard does NOT want an owner coming back with further complications on a nightmare job like this. I'd want it done right so they go away sailing without risk of future malfunctions...)

Hrumph.

Sorry the bill was so large, but it looks to me that they documented everything in a detailled manner and followed up with a good test of the equipment. All good operating procedures.

Also, the extensive documentation tells me that they were aware there were going to be questions about the bill, so they kept track of all the recalcitrant elements.

Human labour costs. Each seized screw can represent *hours* of labour. Also the trick is, with jobs like this, is not breaking any peripheral items when attempting to fix the primary things - which all seemed to have been seized or stripped out - like the original coupler screws (did you do that, or was it the previous owner?)

Really, really, difficult - and takes lots of human effort.

Hrumph again.
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Old 09-03-2021, 06:08   #18
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Re: Disputing Boatyard Charges

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Exactly, I can't tell you how many straight forward jobs turned into multi day extravaganzas when a bolt was seized, when metal was corroded, when things snapped, when a part turned out to be made out of unobtainium. It's a boat.

You could have done the prep work yourself and then let the yard do the install. That way you'd know what the issues really were.
I dont believe you got hosed,,,,,,there appears to be lots of work involved, including multiple uses of the Travelift. If anything, the original estimate of manhours was way too low. Was that estimate prepared before boat was hauled out?

If the rudder had to be pulled to remove the shaft, everyone involved, including the Owner, should have known in advance that the job was not going to be easy. And you knew the prop shaft needed to be repaired - once Boat Surgery begins, there is no turning back. Kinda hard to just close up and put her back in the water. I recently spent half a day just getting the prop off. A salt water environment is equivalent to welding metal parts together!
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Old 09-03-2021, 07:41   #19
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Re: Disputing Boatyard Charges

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This is a bit on you.

If paying a boat yard to do something you can’t walk away and expect it to happen without issue. You need to be onsite and oversee the work or this will happen.

The real fix is to use a diy yard and do the work yourself. It’s likely that the quality of work will be better and the cost certainly lower. Just because someone is employed by a boat yard doesn’t mean he’s actually more qualified than you to do the work. In my experience most “professionals” in the boat world are hacks at best.
A bit difficult because I live 6 hours from where the boat is kept....
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Old 09-03-2021, 08:04   #20
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Re: Disputing Boatyard Charges

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Originally Posted by Fore and Aft View Post
Snow Goose I am not sure you got ripped off. Plenty of people on this forum will tell you about a 5 minute job on their yacht that ended up taking all day.
Cheers
Absolutely. I can tell a worse story. Wanted to replace the pickup hose in my water tank. Should have been a 10-15 minute job max. Took me 15-20 hours.

So I think quite likely that all the jobs and charges the OP had from the yard were completely legit but with oversight and dialogue with the yard when things got difficult could have been much lower.

Bottom line, tell a yard to do something and give them carte blanche then things like this are very likely. Not that the yard is making up stuff but with more owner involvement in the process the excess charges might be much lower.
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Old 09-03-2021, 08:21   #21
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Re: Disputing Boatyard Charges

Therein lies the reason most end up doing their own work. It's not that we love crawling in cramped quarters, getting gritty and dirty with fiberglass, busting knuckles etc. It's that we've tried to hire work done and found out.. you can't really. It will be done poorly and expensively and stupidly.
I literally can't think of one job I had done with satisfaction in the US. The major work I had done in Trinidad was pretty good.
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Old 09-03-2021, 08:49   #22
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Re: Disputing Boatyard Charges

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Originally Posted by Fore and Aft View Post
Snow Goose I am not sure you got ripped off. Plenty of people on this forum will tell you about a 5 minute job on their yacht that ended up taking all day.
Cheers
& this would mostly be a regular one...! Once in a while while doing the 5-minute-job (that in itself was going to take all day) one discovers 5 additional jobs each taking 2-3 days...
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Old 09-03-2021, 09:00   #23
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Re: Disputing Boatyard Charges

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Therein lies the reason most end up doing their own work. It's not that we love crawling in cramped quarters, getting gritty and dirty with fiberglass, busting knuckles etc. It's that we've tried to hire work done and found out.. you can't really. It will be done poorly and expensively and stupidly.
I literally can't think of one job I had done with satisfaction in the US. The major work I had done in Trinidad was pretty good.
Sorry I have to disagree. You can get work done cheaply, done well, and done fast. BUT....... you only get to pick two out of the three.
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Old 09-03-2021, 09:36   #24
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Re: Disputing Boatyard Charges

Littlewing has outlined the realities very neatly.

A professional firm undertaking contract work for a client will furnish as part of the Estimate of Cost a so-called Scope of Work, a document that sets out with some precision the step-by-step procedures and tasks the firm's employees will follow to provide what the client desires to have done. The SofW is the itemized basis for calculating the estimate provided by the service provider to the customer, and only when the customer "signs off" on the SoW, and formally accepts the estimate by signing a counterpart of it, will work begin.

The Estimate will, of course, contain a clause that specifies what is to happen if exigencies make the work more than that enumerated in the SofW.

It is this "signing off" that constitutes the Contract between service provider and client, and it is such a contract that a court will wish to examine in case of a civil dispute coming before it. If there is no such contract, but only a verbal, loosey-goosey "go ahead" from the client, a Court has nothing to examine and the "facts of the case" cannot be determined by the Court, given that both parties must be expected to prevaricate and dissemble.

So I'm fairly sure that in this 'ere colonial jurisdiction, a court, if your case came before it, would take about five minutes to find in favour of the service provider.

IMO the best you can do, Snowgoose, is swallow hard, write the cheque [making sure it's good :-)], get your boat back in the water, sail away and hope the repairs are adequate as performed.

Then, of course, comes the "downstream" work of learning to do the work yourself so you TRULY have control of its scope and its cost.

A rather separate issue is whether a client reviewing a SofW prior to acceptance has the knowledge to determine whether it is a) adequate b) not inflated. That question is relevant because what a good professional can do FOR you, he can also do TO you! Working with professionals - of every kind - you must know as much or more about the task at hand as does the professional. Else you cannot monitor and supervise him.

All the best to you.

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Old 09-03-2021, 09:51   #25
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Re: Disputing Boatyard Charges

It is a boat and stuff happens, but the yard which strips bolts and doesn't know that the rudder has to be dropped to replace the shaft is showing their lack of experience and expertise.
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Old 09-03-2021, 09:57   #26
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Re: Disputing Boatyard Charges

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Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
Therein lies the reason most end up doing their own work. It's not that we love crawling in cramped quarters, getting gritty and dirty with fiberglass, busting knuckles etc. It's that we've tried to hire work done and found out.. you can't really. It will be done poorly and expensively and stupidly.
I literally can't think of one job I had done with satisfaction in the US. The major work I had done in Trinidad was pretty good.
I have had exactly one good experience. The rest is what you describe. The marine service industry in the US is in such a state that I often feel like if I need to engage them, I'm preparing for battle.

That is really sad.
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Old 09-03-2021, 10:32   #27
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Re: Disputing Boatyard Charges

I wrote this review maybe a dozen years ago:


I agree with Ron, integrity is not one of their strong suits. The office staff, including Sarah, are quite nice. Leadership is horrible. I had to have my bow pulpit replaced. While they were at it, I asked to have a macerator pump that I had in hand installed to replace the old one on the boat, which had good access. First, they ripped off my old bow pulpit, making the boat useless, for SEVEN weeks! They claimed the metal shop was to blame. When I asked why they'd taken the old one off before the new one was ready to be built, they claimed they needed the old one for measurements. I explained that my boat was in the same marina, no further away than their yard, and they could have measured the old pulpit anytime. They kept claiming the metal shop was to blame, when indeed it was their own poor scheduling and project management. Then they complained to me that my boat was taking up space in their yard!!! How dare they.

They quoted me 1 hour to replace the macerator pump. The bill was for 6.2 hours = $762!!! Nonsense. They said they had to rip all the other plumbing in the easily accessible compartment right in the saloon out. That's why it took so much time. I found an old picture of that area which showed some tape on a hose clamp - that tape was still there! They did not move anything. In addition, they hadn't even screwed the new pump down, and where it was precluded me from opening the seacock! They "fixed it" by only using two of the four screws.

When I gave them an "opportunity to correct their billing error" they became abusive to me. "I didn't make any money off your work, go somewhere else." "If you people think you can do it faster than we can, then go somewhere else." "My people do good work," to which I replied, "If they do such good work, how come they messed up the macerator installation and had to point it out to you so you come back and fix it?!?"

I used to use this yard for 16 years, and the prior owner, Peter, was quite good and their yard manager, Greg, is fine, although he wasn't involved in any of this work.

I won't go back. In fact, Sean has banned me from his yard. As I left, after he grudgingly gave me money back that he never should have charged me for in the first place, he yelled, "Go to Svend's, go to KKMI, never come back here!" Guess what I'll do?

Scheduling is horrible.

Promises are unfulfilled.

Work is shoddy.

Attitude is unfriendly, belligerent and downright nasty if you question anything.

Don't bother going here. Ever. For anything.
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Old 09-03-2021, 10:41   #28
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Re: Disputing Boatyard Charges

Since you’ll end up paying the bill I would try and get some kind of guarantee that they did t damage your transmission getting the coupler unstuck ie using a slide hammer on the shaft. If they did you may find that your tranny will start leaking, knocking or start having other issues.
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Old 09-03-2021, 10:45   #29
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Re: Disputing Boatyard Charges

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I have had exactly one good experience. The rest is what you describe. The marine service industry in the US is in such a state that I often feel like if I need to engage them, I'm preparing for battle.
Same here in Spain: Tried all 4 diesel-mechanics in the town I could find: the best one show up only a week late after countless promises and calls, but once here he did good work. The rest was worse.

At some points, one really feels the spanners calling...
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Old 22-03-2021, 17:28   #30
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Re: Disputing Boatyard Charges

Looks like endless horror stories on boatyards ripoff. Over the years, I generally, maybe surprising, had a good experience with boatyards, including years in the Caribbean, Europe and definitely with my usual boatyard in Massachusetts. I do a lot of the boat work myself for all the years including mechanics, fiberglass, electrical, plumbing etc. - I know how things are done, how long it should take and the possible time consuming complications.

That's until... very recently, back in the US, I had few works to do in a southeast boat yard.

Throughout my sailing and boat maintenance and serious refitting projects history, I learned, like all of us, that in many cases a simple job that looks like an hour max will take a day or more. But there are also the opposites...

But bold cheating, is something I can't tolerate with. Here are just few real examples:

* A boatyard rigger spoke with me for 10 minutes; the charge was one hour

* Un-mast, a deck stepped mast. I removed all sails, the boom, vang, disconnected all wiring etc. It was net lifting the mast - on the hard. I was there. Crane $600 ("split" charge with another mast job) . Total time from the crane arrival, releasing all 11 shrouds, no issues, 50 minutes until the mast was on the stands near the boat and crane left. Three boatyard people were there: - Charged 8 hours(!)

* Materials: Needed a small area repair at the skeg: They used about half a gallon epoxy: I was charged 4 gallons(!) - at a price of 30% above the retail price...

* New standing rigging: They quoted $7,800... not including freight and installation. My rigging company in New England made it for me for $4,200...

And the list goes on and on. ALL the timesheets and materials were inflated by numbers and cost. They first refused to provide the time and materials detailed sheet, telling me; "All the motor boaters here, only want the bottom number..." - after a month they provided a hard copy with some 40 lines for few days of work... (of course not an Excel - just to make it difficult to calculate). And I started to find - line by line - how everything was inflated between 50% to 500%. They even included a $420 grinder in my bill of materials...

After I caught them with these lies, their explanation was "this is what the employees reported every day..." - I was just wondering if they pay their employees by how many hours they report per client per job per day, a fixed salary or what...

This is a "reputable" boat yard... and this is how they treat clients.
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