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Old 20-11-2018, 22:07   #331
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Re: Cruising Sailboats: a Dying Breed?

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Yep, that's where I got the data.
I think you are on to something about AI. There are legal professionals I know who are already affected. Yet, AI is also creating tons of jobs for the nerds who are creating AI. There could be whole new professions... for us nerds, anyway. I hope to be floating somewhere far away before the machines take over.
If someone comes up with AI weather routing, I'll be nervous if it's free...
Until AI gets smart enough to start designing itself Ö the singularity, as theyíre calling it (as an astrophysics nerd it kinda annoys me that the tech nerds are stealing our terms). But yes, from the prequel documentaries I watch there should be great new jobs in robot busting and time travelling learning logic tricks to turn an AI inside out, mentally speaking

The coming robot/AI revolution ó All the more reason to go cruising .
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Old 13-01-2019, 16:07   #332
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Re: Cruising Sailboats: a Dying Breed?

If sailing and cruising are in decline, why are the marinas so full of boats? I contacted a marina recently regarding a live aboard slip for a 40' boat. I was told that there were 138 applications on the waiting list, and the first person on the list faced a two-year wait. What's more, there was nothing inexpensive about that slip rental.
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Old 13-01-2019, 16:45   #333
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Re: Cruising Sailboats: a Dying Breed?

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If sailing and cruising are in decline, why are the marinas so full of boats? I contacted a marina recently regarding a live aboard slip for a 40' boat. I was told that there were 138 applications on the waiting list, and the first person on the list faced a two-year wait. What's more, there was nothing inexpensive about that slip rental.
Depends on where you are. 30 years ago (when I started sailing) more than 3/4 of the marinas on the north shore of Lake Ontario had years long waiting lists. Now I can pretty much role into any marina on Lake Ontario and get a slip for the season immediately! amd most are between 1/2 and 3/4 full. Boating is on the decline for sure. Mostly because I think of cost and owners lack of ability to DIY!
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Old 13-01-2019, 16:52   #334
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Re: Cruising Sailboats: a Dying Breed?

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If sailing and cruising are in decline, why are the marinas so full of boats? I contacted a marina recently regarding a live aboard slip for a 40' boat. I was told that there were 138 applications on the waiting list, and the first person on the list faced a two-year wait. What's more, there was nothing inexpensive about that slip rental.
In many areas (EG: San Francisco Bay) the term "live aboard" is the problem. There is a strong move in many areas to limit live aboards on boats because they are viewed as bay fill.

In my local Marina, Santa Cruz, CA the number of live aboards allowed is higher than the SF Bay, but only slightly. Again, the reason is that marinas weren't built to support long term live aboard by a large percentage of the population. The showers and heads etc... aren't large enough.

But there is also the on-going problem of live aboard boats never going sailing and some ignoring the obvious pollution problems. We've had six boats busted in our marina for using their toilets in the harbor in the last three months. We have numerous broken down cars being used as storage units ashore by live aboards. None of this particularly endears the live aboards in our area to the rest of the marina tenants or the owners.

The waiting list in Santa Cruz harbor for a 40' slip is about 10 years. In San Francisco Bay there are spaces available now, but not many.

It appears that the reports of lots of empty slips is coming from a different area, not where I live.
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Old 13-01-2019, 17:00   #335
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Re: Cruising Sailboats: a Dying Breed?

Depends where you are, a lot of these slips are for what they call trophy boats were some one finally buys the boat they want to show their wealth. The are generally in the 28 to 30 foot length and mostly power boats. The new proud owner will end up using it for a few years before loosing interest in it. It will sit there with little if and use nor maintenance till they get fed up paying for it and they will put it on the market for well over what it is actually worth.
In SOCAL the trophy boat length went from around 25 feet to 30 forcing most marinas to abandon small slips and some larger ones just to accommodate the demand.
As for the sailboat/cruiser gang you can see the numbers falling as the younger generation take on other interests that do not involve them to commit time to learn the sport.
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Old 13-01-2019, 17:07   #336
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Re: Cruising Sailboats: a Dying Breed?

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If sailing and cruising are in decline, why are the marinas so full of boats? I contacted a marina recently regarding a live aboard slip for a 40' boat. I was told that there were 138 applications on the waiting list, and the first person on the list faced a two-year wait. What's more, there was nothing inexpensive about that slip rental.
In New England 8lin the past 30 yeyrs most of the urban, formerly downscale working men's marinas have been turned into upscale water front luxury condos, etc. That puts pressure on further away marinas to either raise their prices or have long waiting lists. Or both.

When I got into sailing, through a downtown sailing club they used to have docks right in downtown and for day sails or overnight trips we used a parking lot within 10-15 min walking distance costing only $7/day. 20 years later the docks are full of luxury boats and the club has just moorings. And the cheap parking is gone having been replaced by a $300mil Federal courthouse.

If I wanted to learn sailing today it would be a major financial PITA, on top of the club dues, as $40/day for parking is not conducive to simple day sails.
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Old 13-01-2019, 20:18   #337
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Re: Cruising Sailboats: a Dying Breed?

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If sailing and cruising are in decline, why are the marinas so full of boats? I contacted a marina recently regarding a live aboard slip for a 40' boat. I was told that there were 138 applications on the waiting list, and the first person on the list faced a two-year wait. What's more, there was nothing inexpensive about that slip rental.
******
It is all about the demographics and the economy: boats are not dying at the same rate as old sailors, buying a boat, especially used one, especially from the charter fleets costs less in terms of the last 20 years buying power.

But all that has nothing to do with ACTUAL sailing and cruising. The well doing cities, like my lovely Boston will always have enough people willing to pay the outrageous docking fees (like me...) for zero sailing 6 months a year and not much more than that during the season ó- and thatís very much unlike me! I sail in the winter in my fully enclosed CC cruiser every week or two and then in the season race the racing boat three times a week and sail the cruiser at least once a week with friends and family. - but Iím a dying breed - I know...

Why? It has been heavily discussed here. IMO, it is all about EDUCATION and CULTURE! My parents were not sailors, they couldnít even afford to think of owning a boat, but my (public) elementary school initiated seamanship (and seawomanship!) as if the fifth grade, continued with rowing, sailing, racing over weekends and school breaks. So many of us continued...
The changing recreation culture fueled by the economy enable some people to keep their boat docked but fly away to charter or just travel the world at a much lower cost than 30-40 years ago.

Courageous Sailing Center in Boston educate 1,000 children in sailing every year, free of charge. There are only few programs like this in the US. If there is no sailing education (and in the Ďno politicsí rules here Iím not going to say anything about the public education), there will be no future sailors except some lucky kids.

So here is how youíre getting full marinas of mostly non moving boats. .
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Old 14-01-2019, 07:44   #338
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Re: Cruising Sailboats: a Dying Breed?

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If sailing and cruising are in decline, why are the marinas so full of boats? I contacted a marina recently regarding a live aboard slip for a 40' boat. I was told that there were 138 applications on the waiting list, and the first person on the list faced a two-year wait. What's more, there was nothing inexpensive about that slip rental.
Of the 25 or so slips at my marina only 2-4 are occupied by sailboats.

I'm a young guy(34) and own a trawler(34 mainship).. I would qualify as a weekender(barely) and feel like most people my age just don't have the time to do anything more than that(most can't even own a boat).

I don't know how to sail but am semi interested. Will I ever own a sailboat? Probably not. Once I have enough time to live aboard or take very long cruises i'll likely have enough money to afford the increased costs associated with a powerboat.

If I decided to drop everything now and live aboard/cruise full time i'd almost have to learn to sail.. It's just that much more economical.
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Old 14-01-2019, 08:36   #339
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Re: Cruising Sailboats: a Dying Breed?

If I may throw my .02 into the conversation. I am an avid caver as well as a sailor (36ft Catalina). This same conversation is frequent in caving circles and the National Speleological Society (the national caving club) has a mere fraction of the membership it once had. often times people cite the same issues: to much training, to hard to do, not sexy enough. Caving numbers have plummeted while rock climbing and mountaineering numbers have soared. I think both are indicative mostly to todays society and yes a little bit on the fact that twenty year old boats can still cost hundreds of thousands of dollars...
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Old 14-01-2019, 12:52   #340
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Re: Cruising Sailboats: a Dying Breed?

There is also a widespread misconception that owning a sailboat (or any boat) is expensive. It can be. But then again does not have to be.

I started out in that downtown sailing club in Boston in mid-late 90s. The buddy who got me into it was looking for a 3-way split of Cal39 membership, which at the time was about $6,000 per season. We did that for a few years and then as the membership price creeped up to $7,500 (it's now around $9-10K or thereabouts) and my buddy got into powerboating I started to see if by myself I can downshift to a 25-30' sailboat membership which by that time was around $3-4K at the same club, and included 1 week per season of overnight vacation sailing.

Then I started to explore the ownership possibilities. My goal was to keep the costs at no more then the club's fees but to have more than 1 week of vacation sailing as a possibility. Plus the pleasure of sailing when and where I wanted.

I achieved it easily. $400 to purchase a 23 year old 27 footer in need of some work (these days knowing what I know I would get a similar sized decent shape no need to fix major stuff boat for under $3K but that was then). I traded a car that I was selling for which the highest offer I got was $1,500 to a guy who fixed what needed to be fixed (as opposed to a boat yard guy quoting me $2,500 for the same job and the yard quoting $4-5K and up). I purchased a mooring on 3 annual installments of $600 (which included all service for these years) plus paid the town about $100 for a mooring permit and about $50 for excise taxes. Also because it was a mooring and not a dock and there was a long 15 year waiting list for a dinghy dock space (it up tto 20 years today) I was paying then about $500 per season for unlimited launch service (all numbers are up since then by about 25-30%).

So I was into:
$400.00 boat
$1,500.00 to fix it
$1,800.00 mooring cost
$1,500.00 to haul her to winter storage (where it was fixed) and launch in the Spring.
These were the initial costs which would be amortized over the 5 seasons I owned my first boat.
Plus the annual registrations, etc. add about $200.00. Launch service $500, haul out/launch/winter storage about $1,500.00

So on the average that boat ended up costing me a little over $3K/season. $3,500 per season if you include all the dooh dahs I improved her with (somewhat less if you deduct the $1,100.00 I sold her for). And I still owned my mooring outright which I used for my next boat.

And I was sailing her those first seasons much more frequently then the club's boats. Plus used her as a great waterfront summer shack. Meanwhile a nonwaterfront rental on the Cape for 1 week was going for $1,000-1,200 at the time. Much more for anything with the ocean view.

So me thinks that the perception of a boat ownership being out of reach is just that - a perception. It does not have to be. But people will always find excuses.
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Old 14-01-2019, 13:09   #341
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Re: Cruising Sailboats: a Dying Breed?

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Of the 25 or so slips at my marina only 2-4 are occupied by sailboats.

I'm a young guy(34) and own a trawler(34 mainship).. I would qualify as a weekender(barely) and feel like most people my age just don't have the time to do anything more than that(most can't even own a boat).

I don't know how to sail but am semi interested. Will I ever own a sailboat? Probably not. Once I have enough time to live aboard or take very long cruises i'll likely have enough money to afford the increased costs associated with a powerboat.

If I decided to drop everything now and live aboard/cruise full time i'd almost have to learn to sail.. It's just that much more economical.
Great! Sailing and cruising is for sailboats not big engines in hulls...
As for your marina... check the water depth and bridges - sailboats like the extra depth and clearance for that mast...
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Old 14-01-2019, 13:12   #342
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Re: Cruising Sailboats: a Dying Breed?

It is kinda amazing how much money sits at those docs unused.
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Old 20-02-2019, 14:30   #343
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Re: Cruising Sailboats: a Dying Breed?

Dying? I hope not... we just started!
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Old 20-02-2019, 15:13   #344
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Re: Cruising Sailboats: a Dying Breed?

t will have to do a lot of dying to get back to what it was when I started in 1970. The first time I sailed into the fabulous Whitsundays Oz, there were only 6 boats permanently moored in Shute harbour, [all commercial, & only one yacht], & none at Airlie beach.


Now there are hundreds. If you saw another yacht in an anchorage, it was so unusual, you would sail over to say hello.
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Old 20-02-2019, 15:41   #345
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Re: Cruising Sailboats: a Dying Breed?

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t will have to do a lot of dying to get back to what it was when I started in 1970. The first time I sailed into the fabulous Whitsundays Oz, there were only 6 boats permanently moored in Shute harbour, [all commercial, & only one yacht], & none at Airlie beach.


Now there are hundreds. If you saw another yacht in an anchorage, it was so unusual, you would sail over to say hello.
I wonder how many Coconut Milk Run / Pacific Puddle Jump boats followed the trades through French Polynesia over the years, then terminated the big journey in OZ.
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