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Old 06-11-2018, 08:56   #226
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Re: Cruising Sailboats: a Dying Breed?

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Originally Posted by B23iL23 View Post
Ok this is scary. I just spent the last 15 minutes looking for that video!

These are a superb idea, in any boat of any age. Look great, can be reached by shorter people and simple.
Well, the hand-holds are interesting.
But...
The interior looks exactly like a utilitarian boat on which I was recently fishing.
To each his own.
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Old 06-11-2018, 09:07   #227
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Re: Cruising Sailboats: a Dying Breed?

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Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
I think you have a distorted idea of longevity.

First there are very few 1960-1970's boats still in use and 1980's boats are fast fading into history. Most remaining are classics that are kept up by fanatics, similar to classic cars.

Probably more important is your average car get used twice a day 5-7 days per week. The mechancials simply wear out and it's not worth replacing. (figure 500-700 runs per year)

Your average boat has maybe 20 runs per year. So as long as decent maintenance is done, of course, it will last many more years than a car...but when you have a 30-40yr old boat and the diesel gives up the ghost, it's not financially viable to replace the engine and the boat typically goes to the landfill (maybe someone strings it along for a few years strapping an outboard on the back but it's a fast downhill slide).
****
Couldn't agree more. Hull alone is just one part of a boat. For the aging 70's-80's boats, a new engine would cost $20-40K, mast rigging etc would go for $20-60K, pumps, tanks, plumbing, electrical, electronics, fittings etc. would require at least $20-30K more and so on... So you end up with a 40 years old average boat that cost you $120K plus whatever you paid for the hull... Wouldn't it make sense buying a ready to sail 10 years old modern boat (30-35') for this price or below?
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Old 06-11-2018, 09:17   #228
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Re: Cruising Sailboats: a Dying Breed?

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Originally Posted by cyan View Post
I think our perfect long-term cruising boat would be a beamy 32-footer, if only it would behave more like a 40-footer on the open seas.
I would be interested of a 32' boat that would be built inside a 40' hull. It would have lots of storage space in the bow and aft. It would be beamy too. I wonder how much cheaper the 40' boat would be if it would require only a 32' interior.

In a full 40' boat with full 40' interior I'd have to reserve one of the cabins as a storage room. It would make more sense to use the large bow and aft storages as storages. When having unusually many guests the difference would be emptying the storage cabinet for them vs someone sleeping in the aft and bow storage areas.
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Old 06-11-2018, 10:00   #229
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Re: Cruising Sailboats: a Dying Breed?

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Originally Posted by rasher View Post
The reason why sailing is dying:
1. Young people don't have free time anymore. Everyone I know younger than me works more than one job, usually involving weekend hours.
2. Paid vacation is a unicorn for most people now. Being able to take longer vacations (over 2 weeks) is pretty much impossible for anyone under 40+
3. Inflation in the housing market and student loan debt has wiped out the disposable income it takes to sail.
4. Sailing clubs are aging and mostly don't have a clue how to reach younger people. For instance, in my local dinghy racing club my wife and I (48 and 44) are the "youngsters". The people who run the club barely know how email works and have no clue about social media.
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Old 06-11-2018, 10:33   #230
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Re: Cruising Sailboats: a Dying Breed?

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Things change.

Rock climbing and hiking are now more fashionable. Certainly take less money.

The whole concept of "a job" is getting outmoded for a huge and ever-growing segment of the population, never mind "career" and forget about "retirement".

And the rates of changes keep accelerating!

Why would you expect stable trends for any aspect of society?
Also means that standard methods of measurement may no longer be as applicable in determining trends. For example, lots more young people are part of the "gig" economony now as opposed to traditional careers...thats a lot more challenging to track than the traditional "W2 for life then pension" path. Especially since the gig economy is global...New Zealand, and a few other countries, even has a visa for it, which allows the under 30 crowd to get temporary work visas for certain categories of jobs...makes that category of the economy very hard to track.

Many take gig jobs in fields which appeal to them. An example contrary to the supposed demise of younger sailors is that I know plenty of young-ish sailors/crew in the charter industury. They move around globally with the seaon or switching gigs as one gets old. This means of course that they dont typically buy boats, but do in fact sail almost every day.

Ive crewed in a couple of races here in NZ recently. About 1/3 of the pick up crew on the boat were younger (30s) and eager to learn from the more seasoned old farts.

Seems to me what the links posted originally are bemoaning is that fewer are buying production sailboats. There are many other ways to sail than getting caught up in the consumeristic desire to own a boat.
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Old 06-11-2018, 10:55   #231
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pirate Re: Cruising Sailboats: a Dying Breed?

Now here is where we disagree..
You guys are in what we describe as the upper income, status oriented group.. whereas down here in the ass end of the economy things are pretty much as they were 40yrs ago..
But hey.. its a lifestyle thing.. some need more than others.
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Old 06-11-2018, 11:13   #232
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Re: Cruising Sailboats: a Dying Breed?

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Now here is where we disagree..
You guys are in what we describe as the upper income, status oriented group.. whereas down here in the ass end of the economy things are pretty much as they were 40yrs ago..
But hey.. its a lifestyle thing.. some need more than others.
Still dark and smelly at the ass end Phil?


Hey that’s a lot like a lot of 70/80s cruising boats
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Old 06-11-2018, 11:38   #233
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pirate Re: Cruising Sailboats: a Dying Breed?

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Originally Posted by sailorboy1 View Post
Still dark and smelly at the ass end Phil?


Hey that’s a lot like a lot of 70/80s cruising boats
I dont know.. rather have a 1967 Nic 32 than a Hunter..
Nowt dark and smelly here.. your obviously used to old style US boats..
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Old 06-11-2018, 12:01   #234
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Re: Cruising Sailboats: a Dying Breed?

doesn't look very lived in, wait till you ride it hard and put it away wet awhile and see how it looks then :-)
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Old 06-11-2018, 12:22   #235
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pirate Re: Cruising Sailboats: a Dying Breed?

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Originally Posted by sailorboy1 View Post
doesn't look very lived in, wait till you ride it hard and put it away wet awhile and see how it looks then :-)
Never ride boats hard.. and shes tidy coz she is up for sale.. and the Eberspacher keeps things well dry.
But.. years living in confined spaces on RN: frigates one learns to stow as you go.. less flying around 8n rough weather.
Wait till you get out there.. you'll know what I mean..
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Old 06-11-2018, 12:53   #236
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Re: Cruising Sailboats: a Dying Breed?

My story and sentiments are similar to GoatGuys post.

I am a genXer and not without the skills or experience that many have alluded are missing from Millenials. I noticed not too many years ago that websites for cruisers and cruising blogs are drying up, being replaced by facebook pages and youtube channels – but seemingly fewer of them.

My own boat and cruising experience runs from inland sailing a 25 footer, to rebuilding/cruising bigger steelies. We made the mistake of returning to Canada to finish school and fire the baby-cannon on home soil, and have yet to recover our sea legs.

Now all I want to do is return to the sea and resume what was interrupted. But like many – the trade-offs of children and their perceived infrastructure requirements, and security sufficient to cruise without tragic interruption make the cruising fund seem woefully insufficient, even on a fantastic salary.

One of the first things cruisers hit hard when pondering the lifestyle are the boat listings and anything titled "cost of cruising". For most folks who are not 1 percenters, anything remotely brand new is a lotto-dream. This leaves us with some hard choices in the used market. Then the cruising costs sticker shock kicks in. Most throw in the hat at that point and go back to watching the life-stylin' cruisers vicariously on youtube.

I am still working towards the dream, but as many, the sticker shock has me second guessing the wisdom of another sortie into the blue.
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Old 06-11-2018, 13:30   #237
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Re: Cruising Sailboats: a Dying Breed?

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I first sailed to Tahiti in 74. There were maybe 30 or 40 cruisers in Papeete then. Our boat it there now along with 3 or 4 hundred others. Marqueses even late in the season, still packed. Same in the Caribbean numbers up tenfold. I sailed into Jost van dyke 11/21/80 to find one other boat in the bay. 2 years ago thru the Med, same up 10 fold or way more. Worldwide more people have lots of money. Cruising is easier with gps, solar, modern conveniences, expensive yachts and newbie owners. Internet spreads the dream, people buy a 1/2 million boat and figure it out.
These numbers seem to indicate that there are MORE cruising boats in the "popular" cruising grounds. I wonder how many of these are charters? (I think Polux also mentioned this trend.)

The attached image shows Marina Taina and its mooring fields in Tahiti this year versus 15 years ago in the mid-winter cruising season. I think I counted 404 boats larger than 20' in the 2018 image, combining slip and moorings. I count maybe 96 such boats in the 2003 image. I think SteveSadler is right on the money. Perhaps the news regarding the death of the cruising sailboat has been greatly exaggerated?
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Old 06-11-2018, 14:44   #238
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Re: Cruising Sailboats: a Dying Breed?

Here was my solution to getting back to sailing after the family, house, dogs lifestyle. None of this is out of reach of anyone who wants to go cruising. Complete I am around $26,000 USD. This thing is tougher than the day it was built with a few techniques not available at the time of manufacture. Speed averages about 6 knots on a light breeze day and has seen its' share of the 10 to 12 knot speeds on blustery days. Not bad for a 42 year old boat. This was an extreme restoration but again not out of the realm of anyone with marginal skills who can read and follow directions. https://forums.sailboatowners.com/in...begins.123244/
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Old 07-11-2018, 05:52   #239
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Re: Cruising Sailboats: a Dying Breed?

I can see the observation of a secular downward trend in sailing is not mine alone. I have been observing it for some years and it saddens me. I ask many of the same questions as previous posters , though with different answers.
I believe that interest in sailing has changed as a result of numerous social and cultural changes, some supported by data, some not.
I first sailed in 1961. It was with a friend of Dad’s who built a “sailing surboard” from Popular Mechanics plans. You got wet, but it would sail on a plane, and was a lot of fun. My Dad’s generation had fought the war- he and his friend had both been Air Force pilots, were extremely self-reliant, built boats, airplanes, hot rods and had no doubt they could do anything they wanted. Those qualities were passed on in great part to their kids .
The next generation of sailors were the “back to the land (and sea)” generation of the late sixties and early seventies. This generation was not obsessed with creature comforts- at least not at first- and home-built a lot of Jim Brown Sea Runners, ferrocement boats, kit boats, and plywood boats from Glen-L Designs.
I myself bought and built a Luger 20 ft kit.- for $1399. “Racer-cruisers” in the 25 foot range- from established builders, and more or less sail-away could be had for as little as $5,000 brand new, and would be advertised to sleep four. By 1975 I had my second boat, a 26 foot Columbia. It was the third largest boat in a marina of 250 boats, few with inboard engines or electrical systems other than lights. Ten years later I had an Alberg 30, and it wasn’t even in the top 20 in size in the same marina. Newer and younger sailing families were coming into our marina, but the average age was getting older just the same, as boats were getting progressively bigger, more complex- and MUCH more expensive. (And guess how our current boat- 40 feet of complexity and almost full-time maintenance fits in that spectrum?)And I would add that the increased size and complexity was proportionately more intimidating.
Attitudes have certainly changed. When I began sailing my own boat, racing was a large part of the local scene- Sunday races would routinely attract 30 boats at a start. Now, in 2018, a big fleet may have 5 boats for races much less frequently held.
Participatory outdoor activities of all kinds seem to be on the decline. I can only think that the virtual world of X-boxes and play-stations offers attractive alternatives, without insects, rough seas, no risks in failure, and in air conditioning.
Our jobs are increasingly specialized, if not hyper-specialized, a condition that makes us see the world as one of thousands of tiny skill compartments, few of which we occupy. And recreationally, there can be few pastimes that over time present more challenges to your personal arsenal of skills than cruising (you may need not be a real sailor to go cruising- but being a mechanic-electrician-plumber-rigger-carpenter-sailmaker-cook-navigator wouldn’t be a bad idea.)
Boat builders have left the business for a myriad of reasons, which include a dwindling market while new boat prices have increased astronomically, and, certainly not least, the need to compete with their own production as their boats enter the re-sale market. In the sixties and seventies “starter” boats sold new for about the cost of a new car, with pre-owned equalling that of a used car. Now “starter” boats are 35 footers well over a$100k. (Example: Hinckley’s first Bermuda 40 went for around $50k, while their last 42 sold in the neighborhood of $2mil.)
Attitudes have no small part to play. My first boat, the kit boat, sank (at the dock) after its maiden voyage, and nothing was damaged other than pride. Easily repaired, I learned to sail on it. It’s operation was SIMPLE. 0ur present boat has inboard, pressure hot water, air conditioning, gen set, oven, radar,GPS, plotter, 2 VHF, EPIRB, SSB, internet, holding tank, anchor windlass, inverter, dinghy with motor , holding tank, reefer,....stuff just about everybody else has. But I fear we have become so sophisticated that the appeal of sailing has suffered. Almost every non-sailor we take aboard as guest says : “ I could never do this. It looks so complicated.”
Finally I believe the cruising terrain has changed irretrievably. In the early seventies Sail Cruising World magazines continually touted “untouched” cruising grounds, both domestically and world-wide. There is now no such thing, even though the participation may be less.
I think this trend of declining interest will continue until a younger generation “ discovers” self-reliance and outdoor activity, and simplicity returns.
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Old 07-11-2018, 12:29   #240
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Re: Cruising Sailboats: a Dying Breed?

I just read through five pages of this. Here are a few observations:

First, could all the old farts like me stop making stupid generalization about Millennials? These sorts of generalization are mostly wrong and at the least based on something someone read or heard on tv. Just as you can't generalize everyone who graduated from High School in the '60s as a "hippy", you have to stop generalizing about this group.

Secondly, could we please stop presuming one-size-fits-all for what constitutes a "cruising boat". That's equally silly. People cruise in all sorts of boats - even power boats and catamarans. I have a distinct memory of looking across an anchorage in the Marquesas and seeing boats from 23' to 68' and sailors of every age. It was 1991 and there were 23 boats there. I was there a few years ago and there were 35 boats in the same anchorage at roughly the same time of year. There were sailors of every age and the boats were almost exactly the same size range. There were, however, three trawlers that weren't there before. We have to stop generalizing without data, it's not helpful.

Finally, there are some innovations that make cruising a LOT better, and many that don't at all. During the '80s GPS began to become affordable and by our cruise in '91 we found were one of the 5% or so in the S. Pacific who had it. That made reaching hard to find places much safer and easier. Now, we have all sorts of electronics which improve things and make things safer and easier for a very small cost. Another example is refrigeration, which used to be terribly expensive and difficult to maintain. It isn't any longer. The list goes on and on. In the '70 on a cruise to the Caribbean there wasn't any roller furling, now it's reliable and common. etc... etc... etc....

If anyone actually cares to make a difference and build the cadre of sailors who do want to go cruising, the method we're employing seems to work. We find young people we like and take them sailing with us. Not daysailing but long passages where they stand watches, learn to navigate, and repair stuff that breaks. We recently brought our boat up from Los Angeles to San Francisco with a crew of two old farts like me, one 40-something and two millennials. Two and a half days on the wind with wind speeds above 30-35k for the later 2/3s of a 370 mile passage. The millennials love its. They were great to sail with and have signed up for some more trips. We turned them into cruisers. They are currently looking to buy a 35' boat and move aboard. I'm sure they'll be sailing for decades.
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