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20-05-2010, 18:02
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#227
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Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ohio
Boat: Now boatless :-(
Posts: 11,580
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goprisko
Early on I posted a proforma budget as a basis for a discussion on budgets..
It was as follows:
Food: $ 125
Customs $ 50
Boat maintenance $ 200
Fuel $ 25
Excursions $ 100
TOTAL $ 500
I would be happy to discuss this with anyone serious...
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From Post #1 -
Quote:
Food $ 150
Port Entry and Clearance $ 50
Entertainment $ 50
Sail maintenance $ 50
Fuel $ 50
Haulouts $ 50
Repairs $ 100
TOTAL $ 500
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Seems there is a little budget drift going on goprisko?
Seems like we cut down on the food & fuel budget in order to do some more excursions/entertaining on shore.
My hat is off to you for you very detailed checklists. I certainly have saved a couple of them as they are comprehensive and useful.
I don't really have a dog in this fight other than to say a couple of things.
- Anytime cruising budgets are discussed the wild card is the exclusions and the time frame. I can cruise a weekend for free, a week for $XXX, A month for $YYY and a year for $ZZZ. Obviously in the weekend cruise I have excluded everything I bought before the weekend and everything I need to buy after the weekend.
The point is what if I am 30 and want to cruise until I am 75? 45 years is a long time and every cost must be considered including cost of the boat, residual value of the boat if I eventually move into a rest home, insurance, boat maintenance for 40 years not 5 years.
As another poster presented I am much more confident in searching the web, finding logs of people who have done it (recently) and comparing my lifestyle choices to theirs.
Can someone go cruising on $500 a month for a short while - sure. The exit strategy is easy - Go home and get a job.
If I make the choice to go long term there is a lot more to consider.
There are two camps here. Those that think it possible and those that don't. As an engineer I can get on either side of the argument. All I need to do is define a set of boundaries that fit either premise.
I am not currently parked on, "$500 a month is sustainable for 45 years."
I am parked on "$500 a month is doable for a year or two if the boat is paid for, up to scratch (ready to go), and I am very healthy."
I don't think excursions fit in that budget. It's food, port costs (I don't move a heck of a lot), minor maintenance and boat consumables, I row my dink to shore and walk everywhere when I get there. My excursions are beachcombing and nature loving. I probably never hit a restaurant or bar and I better get mighty used to salt water bathing and pooping in the ocean.
At one time in my life that would have been fun and I bet there are a few guys & gals out there doing it right now - We just don't know about it because they can't afford a phone, computer or internet connection.
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21-05-2010, 06:38
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#228
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cruiser
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Virgin Islands
Boat: Pegasus 45 25 Tons, "Pegasus"
Posts: 531
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Beth's Paper...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mambo
You left out the category "boat expenses". Beth writes about 3 boats: simplicity, moderation and high life. The respective total budgets for each are 8,000; 20,000 and 60,000. Those numbers are from a few years back. You cut and pasted only the "living expense category and left out the "boat expense" category. I just wanted to know why (okay, honestly, I just wanted to see if you would say why you did it ).
Enough.
-M
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Thank you for pointing out that I missed the remaining 3 tables from this paper...
http://www.bethandevans.com/pdf/costofcruising.pdf
Which Fishwife was kind enough to share...
Please find the tables attached....
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21-05-2010, 07:13
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#229
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cruiser
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Virgin Islands
Boat: Pegasus 45 25 Tons, "Pegasus"
Posts: 531
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Budgets and Gimcrack
Quote:
Originally Posted by fishwife
Might I suggest that the bucket is made redundant if you have a composting toilet.
One of many on the market Air Head Dry Toilet: Marine Composting Toilets - Environmentally Friendly Marine Composting Toilet System
As for budget, I've read all sorts of opinions and found actually going cruising, you spend what you have available. If you don't have enough you end up somewhere far from home hoping to sell your boat. That extreme has led to real despair and suicide. I've had personal experience of people who set off following the dream and life dealt them one too many financial blows. I'd hate to stop someone setting off but IMHO $500 a month is living right on the edge.
My 3 cents worth (even my opinion has inflationary costs).
P.
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Thank you very much Fishwife for sharing important opinions and data...
I personally know all about being stranded enroute... the first time was caused by faulty info from home regarding the dot com crash, which cratered the Endowment on which we financed the expedition. The second time was caused by the Government of Namibia who welshed on their promise to reimburse us for our travel expenses to Namibia. Local friends assisted us until we could get on our feet again... in each case... I cannot thank them enough.
That said, the composting toilet is a great idea.. while I have not yet visited the site, if this toilet does not use water, it need not have a seacock.. and that is a very good thing.
Regarding Beth's Simplicity Budget, I see several items that our target 28-34 ft boat crewed by two can dispense with, as follows:
Boat Insurance $ 368
Communication $419
TOTAL $ 887
This drops the Simplicity budget to $ 6900 or so...
Beth's budget has the following items...
Entertainment $ 697
Souvenirs $ 150
Fuel $ 334
Marina $ 316
From our personal experience the Marina category is discretionary. If our
target cruiser has no engine the fuel expense goes away, and the boat maintenance expense drops by a third...
Lets revisit the budget...
Provisions $ 2400.. assuming a crew of two... extensive use of legumes
Entertainment $ 700
Marina/mooring $ 0
Communication $ 200 assuming use of Skype at internet cafes and email
Fuel $ 60 LPG and lamp oil
Officials $ 200
Navigation $ 500 Beth calls this OTHER
Boat Maintenance $ 1200 No Engine... 25% reduction
Boat Insurance $ 0
Health Fund $ 200
Gifts $ 100
TOTAL $ 5560 / year
Leaving $ 440 un- allocated...
NOW.......
Living on such a budget is a lifestyle choice... no one can command anyone to do so...
Certainly I am not doing so....
Even so... given the following costs....
Boat $ 25,000
Outfitting and repairs to boat $ 10,000
3 Years cruising funds $ 18,000
TOTAL $ 53,000
We are speaking of an investment twice as large as the average amount of savings per household in the USA... This is a substantial investment.... No one should contemplate doing this lightly...
There are many alternatives... let's examine one that ie represented by the commentors who have boats larger than 40 ft.
Boat $ 350,000
Outfitting $ 100,000
3 Years cruising funds $ 75,000
TOTAL $ 525,000
This sum is attainable only by those who sold their houses at the top of the market, or who are highly paid professionals...
SO..... the question remains... in which category economically do you fit?
This thread is for the plebian sector of the community...
INDY
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21-05-2010, 17:04
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#230
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Moderator
Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 21,154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goprisko
Thank you very much Fishwife for sharing important opinions and data...
From our personal experience the Marina category is discretionary.
Absolutely correct, and important at all budget levels.
NOW.......
Living on such a budget is a lifestyle choice... no one can command anyone to do so...
Certainly I am not doing so....
Even so... given the following costs....
Boat $ 25,000
Outfitting and repairs to boat $ 10,000
3 Years cruising funds $ 18,000
TOTAL $ 53,000
We are speaking of an investment twice as large as the average amount of savings per household in the USA... This is a substantial investment.... No one should contemplate doing this lightly...
Again, correct
There are many alternatives... let's examine one that ie represented by the commentors who have boats larger than 40 ft.
Boat $ 350,000
Outfitting $ 100,000
3 Years cruising funds $ 75,000
Whoops, here I see a bit of unfair comparison: You allow the low budget cruiser to search for and find a bargain smaller boat, but you seem to assume that anyone in a larger craft simply goes out and pays list price for a new or nearly new boat. Having done so, he then finds that it is poorly equipped and hires someone to bring it up to speed for 100 k$ instead of doing it himself. When he finally get under way, he lives profligately and spends more than four times what your low bucks chap does each year.
I will certainly agree that larger boats cost more than smaller ones, both to buy and to maintain, but owning a larger boat does not automatically mean that one spends indiscriminately. There are a lot of folks out cruising in 40+ foot boats whose budgets are FAR less than your example (but are indeed greater than the target of 500$/month), and whose total outlay is way less than the 525k$ you come up with.
TOTAL $ 525,000
This sum is attainable only by those who sold their houses at the top of the market, or who are highly paid professionals...
SO..... the question remains... in which category economically do you fit?
This thread is for the plebian sector of the community...
Indy, while I have disagreed with some of the details of your arguments, I certainly do agree with your support of low cost cruising, and imagine that many folks have benefitted from the opinions that you express.
I still feel that your insistance on Draconian predeparture disassembly of the boat is excessive, and could lead to discouraging potential cruisers. You, of course, can have such exacting standards for your own vessels, but reqiring such measures as removing all the sinks to inspect them for corrosion damage might well lead a prospective sailor to take up golf instead!
INDY
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Cheers,
Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II lying Bayview, NSW, Oz
__________________
Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II, lying Port Cygnet Tasmania once again.
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21-05-2010, 17:33
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#231
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cruiser
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Virgin Islands
Boat: Pegasus 45 25 Tons, "Pegasus"
Posts: 531
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Cruising on $ 500 per month...
Thank you for admitting that the large income cruiser spends considerably more outfitting his floating condo than our budget cruiser.
There is no doubt many figures can be generated, but in this thread the only figures of interest are those appropriate for the minimalist who has few resources and must make the most of them.
To enter this blog and emit invective and criticism from the deck of 77 ft mega yachts moored in the Singapore Yacht Club Marina and other such venues, is not only counter productive, but it smacks of elitism, and an attempt to enforce a class heirarchy, both contrary to the concept of yachting as I know it.
This thread is MY IDEA... again prompted by the successful career of Kevin, who found an uncompleted Southern Cross 31 and finished it, and circumnavigated in it, without Engine, electrics, etc.. and to the memory of Lin and Larry Pardey who did the same in Seraffyn and Talesin.... on shoestring incomes.
This thread is for the express purpose of providing to the man with modest means, and the desire to see the world, concrete, proven strategies for achieving same.
I intend to carry this form forward with a detailed analysis of the costs associated with world wide cruising in Kevin's boat, the southern cross 31... Hopefully, the portugese, or fishwife will take on similar cost comparisons with boats like the folkboat, the wanderer class, the vertue, or the Pearson Vanguard.
The goal is to provide the wanna be cruiser with facts and figures he can use to begin his search for an economical boat to cruise with.
INDY
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21-05-2010, 17:39
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#232
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cruiser
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Virgin Islands
Boat: Pegasus 45 25 Tons, "Pegasus"
Posts: 531
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Sails for the Southern Cross 31
Every cruising boat that has been refastened and refurbished to the standard specified on the checklist, needs sails.
Depending upon what is there when the boat is purchased, the new owner may find he needs one or many.. in our analysis we will assume he needs everything...
Examination of the Bacon Website
Bacon Sails & Marine Supplies
shows many mainsails available at prices from $100-1000 but this one caught my attention because it has bronze slides..
Catalog Number: 255-BEJI-114 Luff: 32' 10" Leach: 34' 5" Foot: 13' 1" Head: 0' 0" Price: $375.00 MAIN, 5.9 oz DACRON BY HORIZON. 7/8" BRONZE SLIDES FOR EXTERNAL TRACK SHACKLED TO GROMMETS WITH VINYL PROTECTORS ON A COVERED ROPE LUFF. 3/4" BRONZE SLIDES FOR EXTERNAL TRACK SHACKLED TO GROMMETS WITH VINYL PROTECTORS ON A COVERED ROPE FOOT. LEACH LINE. ROWS OF REEFS UP: 2' 10" AND 5' 0". TAKES 4 STANDARD BATTENS: INCLUDED. LEACH LINE CHAFFED. NEEDS FEW SELF ADHESIVE PATCHES UP TO 2" X 2". MODERATE SOIL/STAIN. WHITE BAG. GOOD. 25 lbs.
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21-05-2010, 17:47
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#233
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cruiser
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Virgin Islands
Boat: Pegasus 45 25 Tons, "Pegasus"
Posts: 531
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staysail for the southern cross 31
Continuing...
This staysail caught my attention....it is of 5 oz dacron, and is about the right size
for a #1 staysail on this boat..
Bacon Sails & Marine Supply
410-263-4880 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 410-263-4880 end_of_the_skype_highlighting Catalog Number: 102-TUR-104 Luff: 35' 1" Leach: 23' 7" Foot: 14' 4" Head: 0' 0" Price: $175.00 BACK STAY MULE, 5.0 OZ. DACRON, BY H.R.& R. BRONZE 2" PISTON HANKS ON ROPED LUFF. LEACH AND FOOT LINES. TAKES ONE FULL LENGTH BATTEN NOT INCLUDED. WHITE, LIGHT BLUE & MEDIUM BLUE. SOILED. STAINED. WHITE BAG. VERY GOOD.
Next needed is a yankee.....such a sail should be high clewed, as this one is...
Catalog Number: 59-SKET-104 Luff: 35' 1" Leach: 29' 2" Foot: 14' 7" Head: 0' 0" Price: $395.00 JIB. 7.0 OZ DACRON BY HOOD. WIRE HEAD PENNANT TO CREATE LOA 37' 7". 2 1/2" BRASS PISTON HANKS MOUNTED TO GROMMETS WITH VINYL PROTECTORS ON COVERED ROPE LUFF. LEACH LINE. MINOR SOIL/ STAINS. NO BAG. GOOD+
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21-05-2010, 17:49
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#234
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cruiser
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Virgin Islands
Boat: Pegasus 45 25 Tons, "Pegasus"
Posts: 531
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This boat needs a yankee.... such a sail must be high clewed... as this one is..
Catalog Number: 59-SKET-104 Luff: 35' 1" Leach: 29' 2" Foot: 14' 7" Head: 0' 0" Price: $395.00 JIB. 7.0 OZ DACRON BY HOOD. WIRE HEAD PENNANT TO CREATE LOA 37' 7". 2 1/2" BRASS PISTON HANKS MOUNTED TO GROMMETS WITH VINYL PROTECTORS ON COVERED ROPE LUFF. LEACH LINE. MINOR SOIL/ STAINS. NO BAG. GOOD+
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21-05-2010, 17:54
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#235
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cruiser
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Virgin Islands
Boat: Pegasus 45 25 Tons, "Pegasus"
Posts: 531
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The entire wardrobe...
The total for these three sails is $ 945... this gives our cruiser three of his most important sails his working sails.
Next in importance will be a set of #2 head sails for this boat... we will guess that these are likewise available at a cost of ~ $350 each and will cost $700.
Here is a suitable sail for $250
Catalog Number: 185-VRO-101 Luff: 33' 5" Leach: 29' 6" Foot: 13' 2" Head: 0' 0" Price: $275.00 STORM JIB, 7.5 OZ. DACRON. GEMINI LUFF TAPE SEWN TO COVERED WIRE LUFF. LEECH AND FOOT LINES. SOILED. CONTACT RUST STAINS, OTHER STAINS. WHITE BAG/GREEN STRIPE. GOOD.
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21-05-2010, 17:56
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#236
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cruiser
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Virgin Islands
Boat: Pegasus 45 25 Tons, "Pegasus"
Posts: 531
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For light airs, nothing beats a cruising chute.. this one is in very good condition and has a sock..
Cost $695...
Bacon Sails & Marine Supply
410-263-4880 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 410-263-4880 end_of_the_skype_highlighting Catalog Number: 129-MASL-111 Luff: 38' 2" Leach: 34' 3" Foot: 19' 3" Head: 0' 0" Price: $695.00 RADIAL HEAD ASYMETRICAL SPINNAKER, 1.5 oz RIP-STOP NYLON. COLORS: PINK AND BLUE. INCLUDES CHUTE SCOOP STYLE SNUFFER WITH HOISTING LINES AND HARDWARE MAKING LOA 39' 1". WHITE TURTLE BAG. VERY GOOD. 21 lbs.
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21-05-2010, 18:05
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#237
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cruiser
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Virgin Islands
Boat: Pegasus 45 25 Tons, "Pegasus"
Posts: 531
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Sail inventory for an engineless southern cross 31
Working sails $1000
#2 headsails $ 700
Cruising Chute $ 700
Spare main $ 400
Trysail $ 300
Stormsails $ 400
Total $ 3500
Given an expected life of 10 years for the headsails and 5 years for the main.. I priced in two mains this gives an annual cost of $350 for sail depreciation.
This item will be part of our boat maintenance budget...
The following parts thereof must be added...
Running Rigging
Standing Rigging
Deck Fittings
Hull Fittings
Antifouling
Galley maintenance(cooker and sink and pump)
Head maintenance(WC, sink, and pump)
Tankage
Cushions
Interior paint and varnishwork
Exterior paint and varnish work
such other categories as we find appropriate.
It is my intent that we flesh out the cost of each of these categories, and estimate the annual expense to maintain them..
In this manner, we will have a concrete estimate of the largest item on the budget, the boat.
INDY
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21-05-2010, 18:12
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#238
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cruiser
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Virgin Islands
Boat: Pegasus 45 25 Tons, "Pegasus"
Posts: 531
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antifouling the SC 31
The SC 31 takes about 3/4 gallon of antifouling paint per coat, perhaps a little less
assuming we put on 3 full coats and extra at near the waterline, using an ablative antifouling, would seem 3 gallons would suffice costing $ 700
Hauling a boat of this size in an economical yard will cost about $350
So a haulout will cost about $1000... is good for about 5 years, using SeaHawk BioTin... or $200 per year annual haulout expense.
We are now up to ,,,,
Sails $350 per yr
Haulout $200 per yr.
INDY
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21-05-2010, 18:21
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#239
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cruiser
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Virgin Islands
Boat: Pegasus 45 25 Tons, "Pegasus"
Posts: 531
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Galley and Head...
Sinks last a very long time... the ones on Pegasus are 20 years old and still sound..
A LAVAC head likewise lasts a long time, with little maintenance
The cooker I have has lasted 20 years with new burners every 5 years,costing $240 for a set of four... we will assume the cooker on this boat has two...
The Fynspray WS 80 pump needs little but new leathers every 2 years costing $10
This works out accordingly....
Head LAVAC $700 plus Henderson repair kit every 5 years costing $60
Expected life 20 years
Sink Stainless, galley $150 expected life 20 years
Sink Stainless, head $120 expected life 20 years
Cooker, Princess, $ 900, expected life 20 years
Head $35 / yr
Henderson pump $12 / yr
Galley Sink $7.50 / yr
Head Sink $ 6 / yr
Cooker $45 / yr
Burners $ 24/ yr
TOTAL $ 130 / yr
We are now up to
Galley $130 / yr
Antifouling $ 200 / yr
Sails $350 / yr
Total $680 / yr
INDY
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22-05-2010, 06:20
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#240
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 294
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Quote:
smacks of elitism, and an attempt to enforce a class heirarchy,
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Oooh, you're gonna want to be careful throwing around words like elitism. You've put up a lot of good ideas (that could be useful even to those of us with a slightly higher budget) ... but elitism runs both ways. I realize it wasn't your intent so don't jump on me, but there is the implication in some of your posts of a reverse-elitism: that doing it cheap is better, not just available to different people.
2nd concern: Those sails you posted seem like good prices, but I would be worried about them.
Quote:
LEACH LINE CHAFFED. NEEDS FEW SELF ADHESIVE PATCHES UP TO 2" X 2".
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Quote:
ONE FULL LENGTH BATTEN NOT INCLUDED.
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Wouldn't it be better to spend a bit more, and start off with sails that are in better condition and have all their parts? If they already need patches when you're starting out, what are they going to look like on the other side of a passage - this seems like 'throwing good money after bad' when they have to be replaced again that much sooner?
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