Container Ship and Saliboats

[markpierce]

Originally Posted by Exile

As MarkSF commented, it may make sense for large commercial ships to filter AIS-B and maybe longer range AIS-A signals when they are trying to maneuver in & out of port, for example, but there wouldn't be much need for such filtering in the open ocean. ...

SF VTS normally filters out AIS-B. (Sorry, the USCG doesn't allow visitor cameras or cell phones in the VTS operations center.)

[markpierce]

Originally Posted by phydeaux

Law and the Rules require us to give way in any waterway when the ship is constrained - a river or channel - try racing the "ditch" from Oakland to Stockton, and have a grain carrier come downstream. And, lord knows how many times I've seen both sail and power boats cut across and even under the bows of ships underway - the "Law of Tonnage" applies - the ship can't stop or turn to give you room - there's few thousand tons underway. ...

After leaving the mouth of the Mokelumne River, I aborted an attempt to cross to the "starboard" side of the San Joaquin River on the way to the Stockton asparagus fair to avoid a confrontation with an outward-bound ship:

[captmikem]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

Where rules 13, 15 or 18 would require it, yes, you are required to maintain your course and speed.


Out of curiosity, what are your professional qualifications, and what type of ships have you "driven" in what capacity? And what to you sail for fun?

My profession for the past 35 years has been as a deck officer, I have worked as 2ed mate, chief mate and Master on offshore tugs, container ships, ROROs, tank ships, cruise ships, mega yachts. US master 3000 tons Mate unlimited, steam power sail, any water, or as they say nowadays upon oceans

For fun I have a little Kelly Peterson 46' cutter at the moment.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by captmikem

If you are going to make an assumption, assume that ship on the horizon does not see you, and that she is going to maintain her course and speed. This will most likely turn out to be true.

Relax, enjoy the trip, altering course toward a ships stern is only going to add a few moments of time to your pleasurable voyage.

Thanks Mike. You have to be the only big ship pro I've encountered, who would prefer that little boats ignore the rules. I didn't find small boats to be so difficult to spot - especially those with sails. And my experience from both sides is that the big ship does take action to avoid the small boat.

I've recopied this quote of yours to highlight what I see as a flaw in this line of thinking. When you first see a ship on the horizon, you can't know that there's a risk of collision. In fact I'd wager that it's most likely that a risk of collision does not exist. An immediate alteration of course by the small vessel might actually create a risk of collision. The safest, most prudent course of action is to systematically check the compass bearing of the approaching vessel to determine if risk of collision exists. During the period that the small vessel is obligated to stand on, it will become obvious if the bearing is steady, and then it should become obvious that the approaching vessel is or is not taking appropriate action - Dockhead stated that should happen by 4 miles, which is about right 9 times out of 10.
Being a small and (relatively) manoeuvrable vessel means being able to turn inside the big vessel - so the bail-out action will depend on a number of factors, not least of which is the confidence of the skipper.

I wonder what you counsel sailors to do when being overtaken by a large ship?

[captmikem]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

Thanks Mike. You have to be the only big ship pro I've encountered, who would prefer that little boats ignore the rules. I didn't find small boats to be so difficult to spot - especially those with sails. And my experience from both sides is that the big ship does take action to avoid the small boat.

I've recopied this quote of yours to highlight what I see as a flaw in this line of thinking. When you first see a ship on the horizon, you can't know that there's a risk of collision.?

Loadesman,
You obviously do not read my posts, If did you will note I say when you determine a risk of collision exists and the ship is not altering course at between 3 and 4 miles it is prudent to alter course to avoid a collision. (Normally to simply point your bow toward her stern). Hard to have a collision when you are headed towards where a ship has been. And contrary to your opinions, this is not ignoring nor disregarding the rules it is following them.

But I do not think that will change your opinions so believe what you will and stand on right up until you frighten the people on both vessels.

[Exile]

It is axiomatic that you must first be close enough to determine that a risk of collision exists. If not, then not only do the Colregs not apply, but you are altering course based on a mere guess. Once you are close enough, and assuming open water, then the Colregs say a sailing vessel under sail is stand on to a power vessel, assuming that power vessel is not restrained by her draft, not under command, fishing, towing or under tow, etc. But rather than trying to determine the priority of each vessel, and rather than making an assumption about whether the larger vessel can "see" you (visually and/or electronically), it seems much more prudent, reasonable, courteous & seamanlike to alter course a few degrees and head for the larger vessel's stern. Among other things, it puts you in control of eliminating any risk of collision, and immediately avoids factors that are inherently outside your control. I also cannot see how this could create confusion for the larger vessel, and to the extent it eliminates a collision risk, it is necessarily congruous with the Colregs.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by Exile

It is axiomatic that you must first be close enough to determine that a risk of collision exists. If not, then not only do the Colregs not apply, but you are altering course based on a mere guess. Once you are close enough, and assuming open water, then the Colregs say a sailing vessel under sail is stand on to a power vessel, assuming that power vessel is not restrained by her draft, not under command, fishing, towing or under tow, etc. But rather than trying to determine the priority of each vessel, and rather than making an assumption about whether the larger vessel can "see" you (visually and/or electronically), it seems much more prudent, reasonable, courteous & seamanlike to alter course a few degrees and head for the larger vessel's stern. Among other things, it puts you in control of eliminating any risk of collision, and immediately avoids factors that are inherently outside your control. I also cannot see how this could create confusion for the larger vessel, and to the extent it eliminates a collision risk, it is necessarily congruous with the Colregs.

Well stated! Some of it has been academic, hold your course? Get your little ass out of the way. I guess a ship 900ft. with a 40+ draft will take a right hand turn to avoid you if they can see you?

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by captmikem

Loadesman,
You obviously do not read my posts, If did you will note I say when you determine a risk of collision exists and the ship is not altering course at between 3 and 4 miles it is prudent to alter course to avoid a collision. (Normally to simply point your bow toward her stern). Hard to have a collision when you are headed towards where a ship has been. And contrary to your opinions, this is not ignoring nor disregarding the rules it is following them.

But I do not think that will change your opinions so believe what you will and stand on right up until you frighten the people on both vessels.

You obviously don't read your posts either. You did not say anything of the sort. You did say:

Originally Posted by captmikem

Just my humble opinion, but I believe if you are on a small boat at sea, and at six miles you conclude you are on a collision course with a ship, the rules do NOT REQUIRE you to hold your course and speed.

Michael

I've never frightened anyone on my vessels, and I don't reckon I've ever frightened any other professionals. I don't know if I've ever crossed paths with you and given you a fright though

We've hashed this out in the forum before - your recommendation for slow-moving sailboats to point to the stern of fast-moving container ships is sophomoric.

[Lepke]

The stopping distance for large, heavy ships is usually measured in miles. In turning there is an advance and transfer movement in addition to assuming a new compass course. Advance is movement in original direction and transfer is movement in the new direction (measured perpendicular). When turning, the ship proceeds on a curved line and the distance the ship slides sideways is expressed as advance and transfer and could be measured in 100's of yards for a small ship.
Even if the container ship could turn 90°, it would probably be 1000 yards down the channel.

[captain58sailin]

With the given example of 6+23 knots between the two vessels, gives you 29 knot closing speed, which at 4 nm range gives you 8.27 minutes or 12.4 @ 6nm to execute a maneuver and allow enough room to avoid a collision. There are a lot of weekenders out there that don't even know they are in trouble until way too late into the scenario, if they notice at all until they see the stern of the ship going by, very few of the week enders understand the dynamics of inertia, advance, and transfer and turning physics involved with maneuvering a large ship. Ergo it is not sophomoric to suggest that the slower, small, sailing vessels to pass astern of the cargo, tanker, towing vessels, it is prudent seamanship. I wish I had a nickel for every time someone tried to sail between me and my barge.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by captmikem:

Just my humble opinion, but I believe if you are on a small boat at sea, and at six miles you conclude you are on a collision course with a ship, the rules do NOT REQUIRE you to hold your course and speed.

Michael

Originally Posted by Lodesman

We've hashed this out in the forum before - your recommendation for slow-moving sailboats to point to the stern of fast-moving container ships is sophomoric.

The collary to Capt. Mike's comment in bold above is that, if a risk of collision exists at six miles, then the Rules would in fact require a sailing vessel (under sail) to stand on -- i.e. maintain course & speed -- to a large commercial ship, thereby requiring the larger vessel to make the course correction. After reading so many accounts from big ship captains & crew about the difficulty of physically sighting small vessels (yes, even those under sail), the lousy radar images such small vessels present, the absence of AIS on so many of them, the time it takes for large commercial vessels to maneuver, the ease in which small recreational vessels can alter course, and the fact that the entire purpose of the Colregs is to avoid collisions, do you believe that standing on in this scenario is actually what the Rules require?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

... your recommendation for slow-moving sailboats to point to the stern of fast-moving container ships is sophomoric.

I certainly agree with you about holding course and speed when it's required - collision avoidance can't work if someone doesn't "hold still". But why do you say this? When I learned to sail in the 70s, in racing dinghies which didn't carry HBCs, this was taught as the most basic collision avoidance technique. Unless the ship is turning towards you, it's guaranteed to work. It's not going to be the most efficient way out, but it's dead simple to execute. Why is it "sophomoric"? Am I missing something?

Sent from my SGP521 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by captain58sailin

Snip........I wish I had a nickel for every time someone tried to sail between me and my barge.

Perhaps many were aiming at your stern

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Wotname

Perhaps many were aiming at your stern

Jokes aside... more than a few have died sailing between tug and tow...

I don't believe I get sucked into these debates all the time.

Some people have obviously never read that bit for sailing boats in the annex... its well hidden

''alter early, alter often"

In pilotage waters as shown in the vid I wouldn't even pay attention to anything under a ship's length away.... do what you feel like before then... I really don't care.

Moving on to my present incarnation...Re the fact that as a yacht you don't have a pair of masthead or steaming lights which can show to the 'steamer' that you have altered course... when possible I always alter enough to go from showing green to showing red or vv...thats a pretty good indicator to the ship's watch that you have altered course...

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by Exile

, do you believe that standing on in this scenario is actually what the Rules require?

Yes - thought that was clear. The rules are pretty clear about it too.