Colregs Etiquette

[GrowleyMonster]

So, I have been doing some reading and thinking about this.

When you are docking a power driven vessel and you take the engine out of gear, do you stop being a power driven vessel for that moment? That would be a ludicrous claim.

When you are running the engine of a sailboat in a narrow channel or pass, in close proximity to other vessels, bridges or other structures, why are you running the engine, if it is not in gear? So it is ready in all respects for immediate maneuvering. If the main engine is running and requires only the throw of a lever to apply mechanical Astern or Ahead propulsion, it is a power driven vessel. If there is no intent to use the prop while maneuvering closely to other vessels, why run the engine?

Sorry. Engine running, power driven vessel. Taking the engine out of gear is a maneuvering method no different from putting rudder amidships, or a ploy to be taken as a sailing vessel. I am not saying that it is not a good idea to start the engine in a close quarters situation, only that you get no get out of jail free card for having the transmission in neutral. The maneuverability condition with the engine running but in neutral is essentially the same as the maneuverability condition with the engine engaged. Same can be said for an EP boat with the system energized but the throttle set at zero. A twist of the knob or flick of a lever sends power immediately to the prop.

That's that. Case closed.

BTW even in the US, while it is seldom actually enforced, recreational vessels are still required to show appropriate identifying lights or shapes.

HOWEVER, in a crossing situation, another vessel has no choice but to assume that a vessel is a sailing vessel, without clear indication that the engine is in use. Standby is in use. So the other guy, like most, is not showing a day shape or steaming lights. If he has his propulsion machinery operating, then it is a power driven vessel. However the vessel assuming this had better be very sure of himself if appropriate shapes or lights are not displayed. And he still must take action when collision is otherwise imminent, and may take action when there is doubt regarding another vessel's intentions or actions as per Rule 17.

Finally, situations like that are where your VHF can very easily and simply clarify intentions and facilitate agreement. A cheap handheld VHF very likely costs less than lunch for you and the admiral and is quite adequate for the task in such a case. So the other guy has his turned off. Still, it would be good to have other boaters hear your call to him, should a disaster occur in spite of your best(?) efforts to avoid it.

[GrowleyMonster]

Originally Posted by Sojourner

Whatever the case, the final position should be you shouldn't have waited until 2 boat lengths to make a move. Here in the Med where we live aboard, 95% of people either don't know the colregs and the other 5% (often myself included) think they know them but probably poorly. A friend of mine was run down by a chemical tanker just a month ago, T-boned in their big cat, lucky to have escaped with only a cracked hull. I'm 100 percent convinced they thought they were the stand-on vessel with sails up, but the Turkish tanker disagreed, and then of course hightailed it back across the border while my friend limped home to be emergency hauled. So yeah, there ain't no 'rights', just how much pride you want to swallow before you ruin your own summer just to be in the right.

Was the collision in a narrow channel (what is narrow to a yacht and what is narrow to a 1000' ship are not exactly the same) that the tanker had to remain within, for safe passage? Constrained by draft, maybe? There is a rule for that. Many sailboat skippers think that as a sailing vessel, they always "have right-of-way" LOL. I suppose it is a very comforting thing to believe in. Regardless, you are right, Ego battles cost a lot in money and lives. You should always have an "out" when passing near a ship. Being right doesn't always keep you and your vessel safe.

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by GrowleyMonster

So, I have been doing some reading and thinking about this.

When you are docking a power driven vessel and you take the engine out of gear, do you stop being a power driven vessel for that moment? That would be a ludicrous claim.

When you are running the engine of a sailboat in a narrow channel or pass, in close proximity to other vessels, bridges or other structures, why are you running the engine, if it is not in gear? So it is ready in all respects for immediate maneuvering. If the main engine is running and requires only the throw of a lever to apply mechanical Astern or Ahead propulsion, it is a power driven vessel. If there is no intent to use the prop while maneuvering closely to other vessels, why run the engine?

Sorry. Engine running, power driven vessel. Taking the engine out of gear is a maneuvering method no different from putting rudder amidships, or a ploy to be taken as a sailing vessel. I am not saying that it is not a good idea to start the engine in a close quarters situation, only that you get no get out of jail free card for having the transmission in neutral. The maneuverability condition with the engine running but in neutral is essentially the same as the maneuverability condition with the engine engaged. Same can be said for an EP boat with the system energized but the throttle set at zero. A twist of the knob or flick of a lever sends power immediately to the prop.

That's that. Case closed.

BTW even in the US, while it is seldom actually enforced, recreational vessels are still required to show appropriate identifying lights or shapes.

HOWEVER, in a crossing situation, another vessel has no choice but to assume that a vessel is a sailing vessel, without clear indication that the engine is in use. Standby is in use. So the other guy, like most, is not showing a day shape or steaming lights. If he has his propulsion machinery operating, then it is a power driven vessel. However the vessel assuming this had better be very sure of himself if appropriate shapes or lights are not displayed. And he still must take action when collision is otherwise imminent, and may take action when there is doubt regarding another vessel's intentions or actions as per Rule 17.

Finally, situations like that are where your VHF can very easily and simply clarify intentions and facilitate agreement. A cheap handheld VHF very likely costs less than lunch for you and the admiral and is quite adequate for the task in such a case. So the other guy has his turned off. Still, it would be good to have other boaters hear your call to him, should a disaster occur in spite of your best(?) efforts to avoid it.

Agreed. If no dayshape is flown, you have to assume the vessel is sailing. But if the engine is running, they should have the cone hoisted (and act as a powered vessel) whether it's in gear or not (unless there's a reason the engine is unavailable for propulsion use).

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by wingssail

No sailor tacks right into the path of a speeding power boat; that is against common sense and Colregs and could result in a nasty collision. Who would do that just to assert some rights?

I've seen it happen many times. Most common is if there is a race (not talking about on a closed course) but even in non-racing situations, we've had it happen.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

However my reading of this is this was late in the and well within the scope of rule 8

My reading was instead of taking early action, he waited until it was well within the scope of rule 8 and created the situation.

As Simi said, a small course correction well ahead of time can be "substantial" enough that there is no risk of collision in the first place.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by GrowleyMonster

...When the give way vessel's intentions are unclear or the give way vessel is not taking appropriate action, the stand on vessel MAY take action. Rule 17, I believe...

Originally Posted by GrowleyMonster

...And he still must take action when collision is otherwise imminent, and may take action when there is doubt regarding another vessel's intentions or actions as per Rule 17...

To Growley Monster any any others who advocate that the stand on vessel take action if they doubt the give way vessel's intention:

It is clear in the rules that the stand on vessel must maintain course and speed once a potential collision situation exists (when the situation is close enough that the give way vessel needs to take avoiding action). If the stand on vessel starts to maneuver it becomes much more difficult for the give way vessel to make the appropriate moves itself and could result in the stand on vessel becoming the "cause" of a collision.

There are some participants in these threads who are adamant, based on that rule, that a give way vessel, even a tiny, slow, sailboat, must carry on without course or speed change even if the oncoming powerboat has not given any indication of it's intention, until the collision is absolutely imminent. Then they are allowed (required) to take action.

What this does, however, is result in a problem for a sailboat which is unable to maintain course and speed due to wind or sea conditions (or obstructions).

Now personally I think that my nerves could not take that and rule or no rule, I am going to change course well in advance (if I can) even if I am the stand on vessel so that I am not sailing into the path of a powerboat or ship and depending on him avoiding me when I have not seen any indication that they have even seen me. But we need to be aware that this is contrary to the Colregs.

As has been stated, the sailboat should plan ahead and try to avoid situations where it a sudden course change would result in a dangerous situation and powerboats should be aware that sailboat's courses are as unpredictable as the wind and stay well clear.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Oh really? 99.9% of the time a sailboat does not have to tack, he can just continue on? Can you cite any such statistics, or is that just your feeling? You apparently have not done much sailing.

If the sailboat must tack within 10 seconds or run up on the rocks, he was already pushing the limits and then forcing a situation where the colregs need to be sorted out...so the vast majority of times (pick a percentage), yes, the sailboat could hold course or slow down a bit.

It could be argued he didn't take early and effective action to avoid a collision.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

That's what sailing is. And why regulations grant them the right of way.

Freudian slip?

I believe a lot of sailors (mostly those with racing experience) secretly believe this and why they assert their "right of way" even though there is no such thing.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

24,000 hrs in my log and have only ever seen one sailboat flying a day shape (2006 in Cape May).
My bet is 99.999% of sailboats don't even have one.

Agreed. A rule that is never enforced or enforced inconsistently is simply a bad rule.

At least in US waters, talking about day shape is a red herring. Unless you have positive confirmation that the engine is both running and in gear, the only logical conclusion is to assume it's not.

Of course, I haven't seen a lot of them used on the med but my experience there isn't as broad, so it doesn't seem to be working there either.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

On a sailboat, engine running but not in gear should be considered under power. The engine isn't being used for propulsion, but it's available for immediate use. So from the general COLEREGS idea that more maneuverable gives way to less maneuverable, it counts.

So by this logic, if you have an electric motor, you are always motoring because it's a simple push of a lever at any second it's available for immediate use.

Once you start making assumptions, you can be wrong and you may not know what is really happening.
- Maybe the prop shaft broke free and the boat is flooding thru the resulting hole. So they are running the motor so the bilge pumps continue to have power while they sail back. They don't have propulsion immediately available but you are assuming because you saw exhaust, that they do.

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by Rumrace

We still have a power boat. Just finished almost building it. It’s an 86 Donzi with a lovely 6.8l LS3 my Grandson and I donned matching red helmets and headed out from Humber bat where we dropped it in. We met wife and daughter out from port credit got them to give us a slow radar powered chase boat. ( shipping lane from Hamilton )
Running at 40knots jumping waves I’m sure the sailboat missed the bright red boat with white strip grabbing air. At the last minute he cut in front of us. If we move to hard to port we die, if we chop the throttle we sink. Anyone who knows the Donzi 18 knows I’m speaking the truth. Solution put the hammer down turn 2 degrees to port come spiting out of a wave sucking his stern under @ 65n. Get that thick rubber neck working.
Everything nice and legal like.
Ol thick neck can waddle back to his lawn chair clique and babble about rude boaters not giving clear way.
It’s fun keeps the whole nihilism thing meaningful

Hmmm, haven't read where the ColRegs were established based on the principle of nihilism. Sounds a bit like alcohol fueled navigation.

Go fast vessels can be fun to drive and ride but should operate far from other vessels, particularly when operating downwind from traffic as one can't hear them coming up quickly and thus the traffic must be assumed to not have situational awareness of such extreme closure rates. IMO, the burden is foremost on the Go Fast boat when operating in Go Fast mode.

Lest we not forget Rule 6 (Safe speed)

Every vessel shall at all times proceed at a safe speed so that she can take proper and effective action to avoid a collision and be stopped within a distance appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and conditions.

In determining a safe speed the following factors shall be among those taken into account:

(a) By all vessels:

(i) the state of visibility;

(ii) the traffic density including concentrations of fishing vessels or any other vessels;

(iii) the manoeuvrability of the vessel with special reference to stopping distance and turning ability in the prevailing conditions;

(iv) at night the presence of background light such as from shore lights or from backscatter of her own lights;

(v) the state of wind, sea and current, and the proximity of navigational hazards;

(vi) the draught in relation to the available depth of water.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

If the sailboat must tack within 10 seconds or run up on the rocks, he was already pushing the limits and then forcing a situation where the colregs need to be sorted out...so the vast majority of times (pick a percentage), yes, the sailboat could hold course or slow down a bit.

It could be argued he didn't take early and effective action to avoid a collision.

1. I think you are not considering that the sailboat (in the case I illustrated in post #122) is trying to remain out of the way of the powerboat for as long as possible. And I didn't say 10 seconds. And in the case I described sailing close to the obstruction before tacking reduces the amount of time, (and number of tacks) spent in an area where the powerboats frequent. Not to mention that the wind and current may be better permitting a better course to windward.

2. The sailboat while sailing is obligated to maintain course and speed, (subject to normal maneuvering, including tacking) and cannot "take early and effective action" because THAT is not "standing on".

What becomes tricky is when wind and sea conditions, or obstructions, force a sailboat to change course or speed in a way that makes the closing situation more critical. To the unaware powerboater "he just turned right in front of me" and infuriates them, but it does not change their obligation to avoid the sailboat and the sailboat, once his tack has been completed, still must maintain course and speed, if possible.

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

So by this logic, if you have an electric motor, you are always motoring because it's a simple push of a lever at any second it's available for immediate use.

Once you start making assumptions, you can be wrong and you may not know what is really happening.
- Maybe the prop shaft broke free and the boat is flooding thru the resulting hole. So they are running the motor so the bilge pumps continue to have power while they sail back. They don't have propulsion immediately available but you are assuming because you saw exhaust, that they do.

I've previously said that it cannot be externally assumed whether a boat is motoring or not. The change of status has to initiate from the boat in question. Exactly because of what you mentioned, where they may have a mechanical problem that makes the engine unavailable for propulsion even though it's running.

The electric motor situation is an interesting one. I hadn't thought of that.

Realistically, the time this is most likely to become an issue is for a boat sailing into a confined channel. They've already started the engine, but are still sailing with the engine in neutral. Logically, because they've made the engine ready for use, they should indicate motorsailing status (out of courtesy) instead of just continuing to sail and potentially making the situation more challenging for everyone else in the channel.

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

I've previously said that it cannot be externally assumed whether a boat is motoring or not. The change of status has to initiate from the boat in question. Exactly because of what you mentioned, where they may have a mechanical problem that makes the engine unavailable for propulsion even though it's running.

The electric motor situation is an interesting one. I hadn't thought of that.

Realistically, the time this is most likely to become an issue is for a boat sailing into a confined channel. They've already started the engine, but are still sailing with the engine in neutral. Logically, because they've made the engine ready for use, they should indicate motorsailing status (out of courtesy) instead of just continuing to sail and potentially making the situation more challenging for everyone else in the channel.

Given that one presumably realizes that they are entering a confined channel and have taken the proper risk mitigation activity of starting the iron jib so as to be provided emergency maneuvering ability, then it seems also presumably one should have had awareness to prepare the proper day or night signal.

Albeit MANY recreational skippers would not know what a motorsailing cone is, just as MANY recreational skippers haven't a clue about ColRegs. But then the other boater's skills and knowledge are outside of one's own responsibility.

[Kelkara]

It's not a question of whether an engine is primed and available for propulsion ... you only need to display a cone if the boat is "being propelled" by machinery ... and it's not being propelled if the part of the machinery called the propellor isn't turning.

If a boat under sail, for whatever reason, isn't displaying a cone it's your duty to treat them as sailing, and their duty to behave as such.