Colregs Etiquette

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

24,000 hrs in my log and have only ever seen one sailboat flying a day shape (2006 in Cape May).
My bet is 99.999% of sailboats don't even have one.

Come to Europe - you'll see lots of them, We have one and fly it when motorsailing - so does Dockhead (I¨ve sailed with him)

By the way - it does no good to say you weren't under propulsion, you were charging your batteries and therefore the tranny wasn't engaged. Their response is that they could see your exhaust water therefore you were giving all indications that you were under power.

Here's your fine - pay it and at the next harbor buy a motoring cone

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

It's better to stay quiet and be thought a fool, than to post something like this, and remove all doubt.

I posted the relevant parts of the Rules - 17 and 18. I suggest you go back and read them, then perhaps put some effort into understanding the other Colregs.
Such as rules 9, 10 or 13 which might also nullify rule 18.

Lodesman. most of us following this thread know you are not going to concede in any way that a sailboat is permitted to tack if it results an a powerboat's consequential need to avoid the sailboat. You've listed a lot of Colreg rule numbers an insisted we just need to read and understand them to know that.

But nothing in any of the rules you've listed says that a sailboat cannot tack into the path of a powerboat when doing so does not result in an immediate danger of a collision. And 500mtrs, or 45 seconds, which we've used as an example, does not seem to be an immediate danger of a collision.

Just open your mind to the following situation (and I could come up with several others):

A. Sailboat sailing into the wind and an obstruction (marina breakwater) causes it to need to tack.
B. Tacking carries it into the path of a powerboat. The powerboat has to avoid and feels infringed by the sailboat because it tacked into his path. See "A" and "B" in the illustration below.

This is not a contrived situation, it is real and there are several other situations where a sailboat might change course and inconvenience a powerboat.

Note, we are not talking about a jerk sailboat operator who turns in front of the powerboat just because he can. While that may be permitted by the rule, (as long as it does not result in an immediate collision danger) it is poor etiquette. We all agree on that.

Further, just because the rule says a stand on vessel must continue it's course and speed does not mean that is always possible. Sailboat's course and speed are determined by the wind and wind shifts or wind speed changes are beyond the control of the sailor. Powerboats should know this and plan accordingly.

Look at this example and tell us that you think the sailboat should not have tacked.

[rslifkin]

Assuming the powerboat has adequate time to react to the sailboat's new course, the sailboat is absolutely permitted to tack. However, if conditions permit and tacking sightly sooner or later would avoid creating a conflict, then that's the courteous thing to do.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Lodesman. most of us following this thread know you are not going to concede in any way that a sailboat is permitted to tack if it results an a powerboat's consequential need to avoid the sailboat. You've listed a lot of Colreg rule numbers an insisted we just need to read and understand them to know that.

You have an undeniable talent in perverting what other people tell you, to try to make some absurd conclusion. If the powerboat is far away, the sailboat may be fully in his right to manoeuvre as he likes, which may result in the powerboat's consequential need to avoid the sailboat. This is very different from manoeuvring directly in front of the powerboat, to force an immediate need to avoid.

But nothing in any of the rules you've listed says that a sailboat cannot tack into the path of a powerboat when doing so does not result in an immediate danger of a collision. And 500mtrs, or 45 seconds, which we've used as an example, does not seem to be an immediate danger of a collision.

If you manoeuvre so as to create a risk of collision, that would occur in 45 secs, you have clearly acted in contravention of the rules. Beyond that, your actions would have been incomprehensibly stupid. The whole point of the Rules is to avoid collisions, and to give predictable and reasonable actions for those vessels at risk of collision, to then avoid collision.

Just open your mind to the following situation (and I could come up with several others):

A. Sailboat sailing into the wind and an obstruction (marina breakwater) causes it to need to tack.
B. Tacking carries it into the path of a powerboat. The powerboat has to avoid and feels infringed by the sailboat because it tacked into his path. See "A" and "B" in the illustration below.

This is not a contrived situation, it is real and there are several other situations where a sailboat might change course and inconvenience a powerboat.

Note, we are not talking about a jerk sailboat operator who turns in front of the powerboat just because he can. While that may be permitted by the rule, (as long as it does not result in an immediate collision danger) it is poor etiquette. We all agree on that.

Further, just because the rule says a stand on vessel must continue it's course and speed does not mean that is always possible. Sailboat's course and speed are determined by the wind and wind shifts or wind speed changes are beyond the control of the sailor. Powerboats should know this and plan accordingly.

Look at this example and tell us that you think the sailboat should not have tacked.

You have the powerboat altering to the south after the sailboat has tacked - this is in no way comparable to the situation being discussed.

Is this supposed to be representative of some area where one could assume any vessel exiting the marina will turn to the south? In that case, the intelligent course of action for the sailboat would be to plan to tack before the powerboat comes around the corner, so its intentions are clear, and it's steady on a course (ie. standing on) when the powerboat needs to take action to avoid.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by wingssail

But nothing in any of the rules you've listed says that a sailboat cannot tack into the path of a powerboat when doing so does not result in an immediate danger of a collision. And 500mtrs, or 45 seconds, which we've used as an example, does not seem to be an immediate danger of a collision.

I'm just going to post this again:

Rule 17
Action by Stand-on Vessel
(a) (i) Where one of two vessels is to keep out of the way, the other shall keep her course and speed.

So, you fully expect the power-driven vessel to comply with Rule 18 and keep clear of you, but you don't understand why you also need to follow the Rules?
I don't know how you interpret "shall keep her course and speed", but most thinking people take that as "you cannot tack, while the other vessel is steering to avoid you."

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by wingssail

.

Look at this example and tell us that you think the sailboat should not have tacked.

Of course tacking vs hitting rocks is allowed
But so is bearing away after the tack and steering behind the powered vessel vs pinching up to go Infront because you feel you have "rights"
.
Do you pull out in front of trucks?

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

So, you fully expect the power-driven vessel to comply with Rule 18 and keep clear of you, but you don't understand why you also need to follow the Rules?
I don't know how you interpret "shall keep her course and speed", but most thinking people take that as "you cannot tack, while the other vessel is steering to avoid you."

The requirement for the stand-on vessel to keep her course and speed has been widely interpreted to include normal and reasonable maneuvering. So for example, a power vessel that is stand-on in a channel would be expected to follow the channel when it curves rather than cross it or leave it as they would if strictly holding course.


For sailing vessels, tacking as part of maintaining an upwind course is similarly necessary and expected of a stand-on vessel. The only real question becomes one of timing. Skippers won't tack without a good reason. When there is a conflict with power boats, in my experience it is usually because the sailboat is navigating around a point and have either come as close to an obstruction as as the skipper is comfortable or have cleared the point and are tacking back on course. Or, sometimes, are tacking because the wind is shadowed by trees or terrain.


For every sailboat tacking to deliberately inconvenience other boaters, there are ten other sailboats that were tacking for reasons the power boaters didn't understand so they thought the sailboats were tacking to deliberately inconvenience them.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by Jammer

For every sailboat tacking to deliberately inconvenience other boaters, there are ten other sailboats that were tacking for reasons the power boaters didn't understand so they thought the sailboats were tacking to deliberately inconvenience them.

I actually don't think anyone does it to deliberately inconvenience other boaters; but I do think there are a lot of sailboaters, as evidenced here, that don't understand the colregs. They have a very simplistic understanding that they have a right of way over power vessels.

I agree with you that normal and reasonable manoeuvring is acceptable within the meaning of stand on, but I think that such a manoeuvre should be planned so as to not create a situation - and if that can't be avoided, it would be better to communicate with the other vessel to clarify the situation.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

I agree with you that normal and reasonable manoeuvring is acceptable within the meaning of stand on, but I think that such a manoeuvre should be planned so as to not create a situation - and if that can't be avoided, it would be better to communicate with the other vessel to clarify the situation.

You're laser-focused on this situation of imminent interaction between a sailboat and a powerboat. On this narrow case, we only seem to to differ on when such a situation exists; I still respectfully maintain that at 500m, in open water without other impediments, the situation doesn't yet exist. With that much time in hand, the sailboat should be able to sail on as desired, and the powerboater has the most control and should be aware of their obligations vis sailboats. You apparently disagree.

Do you have any concern about the powerboater's choice to stay on a course that makes such interaction probable?

* * *

The following idea is off-the-wall, but here goes: if a powerboat and a sailboat are on an apparent collision course (with lots of time for reaction), and the sailboat turns to be be perpendicular to the powerboat's course, there's no longer any ambiguity about how the sailboat is going to react, it's obvious where the sailboat is going, and removes any guesswork on the part of the powerboat skipper. It also clearly signals "please pass astern".
Discuss

[wingssail]

You have an undeniable talent...

Thank You

Originally Posted by Lodesman

You have the powerboat altering to the south after the sailboat has tacked - this is in no way comparable to the situation being discussed.

No I don't, and I sure didn't intend to draw it that way.


...This is very different from manoeuvring directly in front of the powerboat, to force an immediate need to avoid.

Agreed (but 45 sec is not immediate)

...If you manoeuvre so as to create a risk of collision, that would occur in 45 secs, you have clearly acted in contravention of the rules...

45 sec? I think that is debatable

Is this supposed to be representative of some area where one could assume any vessel exiting the marina will turn to the south? In that case, the intelligent course of action for the sailboat would be to plan to tack before the powerboat comes around the corner, so its intentions are clear, and it's steady on a course (ie. standing on) when the powerboat needs to take action to avoid.

So your suggestion is that the sailboat should stay towards the middle of the channel so as to give himself room to get out of the way of any powerboat which happens to shortly come out of the marina? And how is the sailboat supposed to know when a powerboat is going to come and where he should be? That is akin to saying the sailboat should not sail into waters where a powerboat might wish in the future to go. That seems to be a bit arrogant.

I think that sailboats should sail their best course towards their destination permitted by the wind, current, and obstructions and that includes tacking, coming up, bearing off, and jibing, as needed based on the conditions as they develop. They should avoid maneuvering, if at all possible, in any way which causes a risk of a collision. That does not mean that they should anticipate what path a powerboat might wish to take and stay clear of that path. A sailboat is just as entitled to a portion of the sea as a powerboat who has put his boat on a plane and set the autopilot. Sailing across a frequented path of water is not the same as walking across a freeway (Simi60).

What has not been acknowledged is that a sailboat's course and speed are the result of nature, not solely the decision of the helmsman. Standing on, or maintaining a course and speed, is certainly expected in a collision situation, and sailors, particularly racers, know that and they do that.

What is missed in your analysis of my drawings above, is that in view "A" the sailboat and powerboat are not in a collision course. At that point there is no "stand on" obligation. Only after the sailboat has tacked (view "B") does a potential collision exist, and then the sailboat should certainly "stand on" if possible and the powerboat should avoid it, as the 45 seconds allows it plenty of time to do.

By The Way, are you saying that 45 seconds to alter course or speed is too little time for you, and presents a danger? Or do you admit that you are just annoyed by the inconvenience?

Now how about this situation:
A. Saillboat sailing to windward, Powerboat proceeding to pass clear ahead of the sailboat. Vessels are 750 mtr apart.
B. Wind shift occurs and sailboat's course changed as a result. Now sailboat and powerboat, at 500 mtr, are on a collision course.

At this point did the sailboat violate a colreg rule? What should he have done? Doesn't the powerboat need to stay clear? Was the powerboat's course too close to the sailboat to begin with? Is there an etiquette violation here? If the power boat is annoyed, who is the jerk?

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

I actually don't think anyone does it to deliberately inconvenience other boaters; but I do think there are a lot of sailboaters, as evidenced here, that don't understand the colregs. They have a very simplistic understanding that they have a right of way over power vessels...

Lodesman, I really hope that you are not claiming that my discussion here is some evidence that I don't understand Colregs. That is an insult and patronizing. I think I have as clear an understanding as you do.

And nothing I have stated either directly or indirectly claims that I think I have "right of way" over power vessels.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by wingssail

I think that sailboats should sail their best course towards their destination permitted by the wind, current, and obstructions and that includes tacking, coming up, bearing off, and jibing, as needed based on the conditions as they develop. They should avoid maneuvering, if at all possible, in any way which causes a risk of a collision. That does not mean that they should anticipate what path a powerboat might wish to take and stay clear of that path. A sailboat is just as entitled to a portion of the sea as a powerboat who has put his boat on a plane and set the autopilot. Sailing across a frequented path of water is not the same as walking across a freeway (Simi60).

Once again you're showing that talent. You can tell what heading another vessel is on, or you should be able to. No need to mind-read. If there is a natural bend in the channel, or obvious fairway, you can anticipate that other vessels will follow that. It's not rocket surgery.

What has not been acknowledged is that a sailboat's course and speed are the result of nature, not solely the decision of the helmsman. Standing on, or maintaining a course and speed, is certainly expected in a collision situation, and sailors, particularly racers, know that and they do that.

What is missed in your analysis of my drawings above, is that in view "A" the sailboat and powerboat are not in a collision course. At that point there is no "stand on" obligation. Only after the sailboat has tacked (view "B") does a potential collision exist, and then the sailboat should certainly "stand on" if possible and the powerboat should avoid it, as the 45 seconds allows it plenty of time to do.

See my drawing

By The Way, are you saying that 45 seconds to alter course or speed is too little time for you, and presents a danger? Or do you admit that you are just annoyed by the inconvenience?

It presents a danger, and is unseamanlike. Leaving someone in a position where they have less than a minute to sort out another passing, possibly with follow-on effects with other vessels is a dick move. And you assume a lot. Maybe he's got his eyes down on the chartplotter (he shouldn't, but we ascertained that not everyone does what they should) and he probably didn't expect anyone to be stupid enough to veer in front of him. I'm annoyed by imbeciles and poor seamanship.

Now how about this situation:
A. Saillboat sailing to windward, Powerboat proceeding to pass clear ahead of the sailboat. Vessels are 750 mtr apart.
B. Wind shift occurs and sailboat's course changed as a result. Now sailboat and powerboat, at 500 mtr, are on a collision course.

At this point did the sailboat violate a colreg rule? What should he have done? Doesn't the powerboat need to stay clear? Was the powerboat's course too close to the sailboat to begin with? Is there an etiquette violation here? If the power boat is annoyed, who is the jerk?

You don't appreciate how little a 30º shift in the sailboat's course, affects the geometry of that passing - it's a few metres. If that would cause a collision, then the power vessel was obviously passing too close. Rarely is a wind-shift so sudden and so great as to create a huge change to a collision-avoidance situation. I also believe the powerboaters should anticipate what sailboats are doing, and if and when they might need to tack. This is usually less obvious, but the 'tacking up a channel' example is a good example - the powerboater should be able to see if the sailboat is nearing the edge of the channel, and will need to head the other way. It's incumbent on all boaters to take into account the manoeuvring characteristics of the other vessels.

You presented your drawing predicated on the power vessel going over 3 times the speed of the sailboat - their relative positions will thus be:



As I said, the tack will have occurred before the power boat turns out of the buoyed channel. So I guess this actually follows what you should do; the powerboater can then set up for a passing based on the sailboat keeping that heading. Looks like he'll pass close ahead - which seems to be par for the course with that breed

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Lodesman, I really hope that you are not claiming that my discussion here is some evidence that I don't understand Colregs. That is an insult and patronizing. I think I have as clear an understanding as you do.

And nothing I have stated either directly or indirectly claims that I think I have "right of way" over power vessels.

Not singling you out, but I don't think you have a good understanding of the colregs.
You have clearly implied that you see no need to obey rule 17, and would turn close in front of a power vessel and then expect it to change course and avoid you - this would be the very description of right of way.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

You don't appreciate how little a 30º shift in the sailboat's course, affects the geometry of that passing - it's a few metres...

Certainly the geometry is difficult to envision. What I thought to show is that "turning right in front of me" is really, "I could have cleared him easy if he hadn't turned, darn him"

You presented your drawing predicated on the power vessel going over 3 times the speed of the sailboat - their relative positions will thus be:



As I said, the tack will have occurred before the power boat turns out of the buoyed channel. So I guess this actually follows what you should do; the powerboater can then set up for a passing based on the sailboat keeping that heading. Looks like he'll pass close ahead - which seems to be par for the course with that breed

I'm sorry Lodesman, that is not the situation I was trying to show. You have backed into the starting positions based on where they are at the "x"'s. Sorry, my poor drawing. At time "A" the boats are exactly at the position of the ends of their vector arrows: the powerboat has cleared the channel and is on course and speed, and the sailboat is just reaching the limit of his port tack towards the breakwater. Your colored dots would define a different situation, and in that one the sailboat would certainly be able to stand on.

We see this all the time: sailboats come out of the harbor and begin tacking out to the SW. Motor boats, quite a number of them, come out of the harbor and begin running out to the SW. There are conflicts because the geography requires the sailboat to tack back towards the line of powerboats.

AND, the wind shifts here, due to the terrain, and in many other places, are dramatic and sudden. If a powerboat is looking at a crossing situation and thinks he can make it, and then the sailboat suddenly turns, there is going to be a complication. Because many of our powerboat drivers, skilled as they may be at docking and the care and feeding of their passengers, don't have any knowledge of rules of the road they don't get the situation in hand very quickly. It is often up the the sailboat to to turn away and avoid the collision, usually wallowing in the wake and giving a single finger salute.

Our discussion here in this thread is about knowledgeable operators on both sides, in open water, where one person's reaction is based on, "Why did they turn? They should not have turned in front of me." and the other's is, "look at that speeding powerboat jerk who thinks it's OK to charge past so closely that we are almost tipped over." And I am just trying to get you, and some other powerboaters to understand that sailboats are going to change course. It's the nature of sailing. They cannot just put it on autopilot and go forever in a straight line.

Sailboaters are going to do the best they can, but sometimes they are going to interfere with the powerboater's agenda. Sailboaters should think ahead and try not to cause dangerous situations and powerboaters should realize that sailboaters are not trying to screw with them, but just trying to deal with nature's conditions.

Nuf said.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

Not singling you out, but I don't think you have a good understanding of the colregs.
You have clearly implied that you see no need to obey rule 17, and would turn close in front of a power vessel and then expect it to change course and avoid you - this would be the very description of right of way.

I don't think that tacking a sailboat at 500mts distance is disobeying rule 17.

Well, anyway, you don't explain, in either of my drawings, what else the sailboater should do. I think those course changes would be considered part of normal and reasonable maneuvering and acceptable within the meaning of stand on. What do you think, in either of those cases, the sailboater's options were (other than anticipate that a powerboat might be coming by and just plain don't be there)?

Your insistence on rule 17's requirements hinges on when the sailboat turns. I think that 500mt, (45 seconds) is plenty of time. Look at the second hand of your clock and think how long it really takes to react to a sailboat's sudden turn. 100 ft? (10 seconds) yeah, can't do it. 1/4 of a mile (45 seconds)? You ought to be capable of dealing with that without any sweat. I know I could. If the powerboat is going 40 or 50 knots, which reduces the time to maneuver, he ought to be farther away from traffic.