Colregs Etiquette

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Not distance, but opportunity. aka time. If a speeding powerboat is like a minute or more away from me, and it's time for me to tack, I'm gonna tack. If there's less time, I might hold off, :

Do you do the same when pulling out in front of semi trailers?

On weekends around here in areas where it gets busy we have had numerous near misses with small craft ending up in front of us, most simply not looking ( we avoid these areas now, to many idiots)
Thankfully, we are only doing 7.5 knots but the 65 tonne of vessel would still smash em up nicely at that speed and the prop and engine wouldn't miss a beat.
Much like a semi trailer going over a small car or motorbike.

but I will still be wondering why a powerboat skipper has deemed it necessary to bear straight down on a sailboat and miss me by only a few boatlengths.

Did you ever think that when they started in that direction there may have been no chance of being close?
Yacht throws in a few tacks, heads up a bit on gust and now they are looking more likely to be in a close situation.

I sailed for decades, I know yachties can be dicks
I see it quite regularly now that I have a powered vessel.
I have had yachts head up or gybe in front of us to hinder our course for no reason but being a dick.
Seems like sport for the desk bound weekend warrior.

And yes, power boaters can be as well.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by wingssail

I am not being condescending when I say you don't understand sailing if you believe that sailing vessels don't ever NEED to tack, they can just stand on. People don't tack for giggles. They tack because the situation requires it.

Did I say sailing vessels don't ever need to tack? No. In most cases if you are planning ahead, you can anticipate if an approaching vessel might be an issue, and if constrained by navigational hazards or other vessels, can plan to tack early or adjust course slightly, or whatever. If you are suddenly surprised by an approaching vessel and forced to tack 500 m in front of it, it's because you're not looking up.

And tacking into open water 500mtrs away from an oncoming power boat is, in my view, not "tacking in front of another vessel". How far ahead of a vessel do you think a sailboat has to be so as not to be considered "tacking in front of it"?

If you have as much as experience as you claim, surely you can make an educated guess about where the other vessel is going and assess whether your turning in front of him, is going to force him to change course. There are numerous guidebooks on the Colregs, that can help you work out where you should consider yourself to be under Rule 17 as far as your obligation to stand on. I can't give you a figure as it is dependent on so many factors - the vessels involved the size of the waterway, traffic density and so on. But I can say with certainty that cutting across the bow of a vessel at a range of 500m is contrary to the rules and f-ing stupid.

And I am not assuming any entitlement, but you seem to think that a power vessel is entitled to unencumbered use of all the water in front of it.

Wow. Just wow.

Please tell me which Colreg rule says that as a sailboat I have a responsibility not to tack if it will put me 500mtrs ahead of a powerboat?

Y'know there is no Rule that says "Don't be F-ing stupid." There is Rule 2 that says nothing will exonerate you for neglecting the ordinary practice of seaman, which could be taken to imply "don't create a risk of collision, where there is none." Or we could look at your simplistic idea that sailboats have right of way over power-driven vessels.

It's Rule 18, specifically this part:

(a)
A power-driven vessel underway shall keep out of the way of:
...
(iv) a sailing vessel.

But if you look at Rule 17, conveniently located right before the last rule:

Action by Stand-on Vessel
(a)(i) Where one of two vessels is to keep out of the way, the other shall keep her course and speed.

If the power-driven has to keep out of the way, the other - the sailboat SHALL keep her course and speed. Pretty simple.

[Rumrace]

We still have a power boat. Just finished almost building it. It’s an 86 Donzi with a lovely 6.8l LS3 my Grandson and I donned matching red helmets and headed out from Humber bat where we dropped it in. We met wife and daughter out from port credit got them to give us a slow radar powered chase boat. ( shipping lane from Hamilton )
Running at 40knots jumping waves I’m sure the sailboat missed the bright red boat with white strip grabbing air. At the last minute he cut in front of us. If we move to hard to port we die, if we chop the throttle we sink. Anyone who knows the Donzi 18 knows I’m speaking the truth. Solution put the hammer down turn 2 degrees to port come spiting out of a wave sucking his stern under @ 65n. Get that thick rubber neck working.
Everything nice and legal like.
Ol thick neck can waddle back to his lawn chair clique and babble about rude boaters not giving clear way.
It’s fun keeps the whole nihilism thing meaningful

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

If there's less time, I might hold off, but I will still be wondering why a powerboat skipper has deemed it necessary to bear straight down on a sailboat and miss me by only a few boatlengths.

I'm curious. Wingie seems to think power boaters feel entitled to the water right in front of their bows, yet here you are whinging about your entitlement to the water astern of you.

[Rumrace]

Your are correct lots of power boaters don’t understand the mechanics of sailing and few care. I’d say a great more percentage of sailors don’t understand power boats.
I always hear sailors arguing about economic issues to save $2.40. yet cut off a power boater tossing their crew around probably cost them 20$ to get back on plane. They could have paused for 30 seconds but nah this will be fun.
It’s more fun in a big powerboat cause the wake will tear the rudder off a rude sailor

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by wingssail

..........

What? Do we think the powerboat has there right to a clear path 500 mts ahead in which no boat can intrude? What about Rumrace? He travels at 35kts. How much of a clear path is he entitled to? In one minute he covers half a mile. "All you guys out there, I'm coming at 35kts, so the next mile is mine, regardless of Colregs."

Interesting observation with a great deal of credibility.



I've rarely sailed on fast powerboats. A dockmate of mine took me out on his SeaRay34 years ago. He was a very responsible skipper, and listened when I explained how and why sailboats work sailing upwind. Our slips/marina was at the east end of the Oakland Estuary 8 nm or so from the main Bay. He was cautious and understanding, and realized he had to look much, much further ahead than he was used to because I explained that with an afternoon west wind sailboats were tacking out heading west when we were returning.


Having sailed out of that estuary from 1983 to 2016, I believe my friend was a rare breed of power boater.

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by Rumrace

We still have a power boat. Just finished almost building it. It’s an 86 Donzi with a lovely 6.8l LS3 my Grandson and I donned matching red helmets and headed out from Humber bat where we dropped it in.

That explains much. We have one or two of those locally.


Like you, their operators presume that because it is difficult to do anything in a Donzi except go fast in a straight line and make a lot of noise, that they are entitled to go fast in a straight line and make a lot of noise.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Rumrace

We still have a power boat. Just finished almost building it. It’s an 86 Donzi with a lovely 6.8l LS3 my Grandson and I donned matching red helmets and headed out from Humber bat where we dropped it in. We met wife and daughter out from port credit got them to give us a slow radar powered chase boat. ( shipping lane from Hamilton )
Running at 40knots jumping waves I’m sure the sailboat missed the bright red boat with white strip grabbing air. At the last minute he cut in front of us. If we move to hard to port we die, if we chop the throttle we sink. Anyone who knows the Donzi 18 knows I’m speaking the truth. Solution put the hammer down turn 2 degrees to port come spiting out of a wave sucking his stern under @ 65n. Get that thick rubber neck working.
Everything nice and legal like.
Ol thick neck can waddle back to his lawn chair clique and babble about rude boaters not giving clear way.
It’s fun keeps the whole nihilism thing meaningful

What part of the Colregs that points out that power boats keep,out of the way of sail boats don’t you understand

[Jim Cate]

Running at 40knots jumping waves I’m sure the sailboat missed the bright red boat with white strip grabbing air. At the last minute he cut in front of us. If we move to hard to port we die, if we chop the throttle we sink. Anyone who knows the Donzi 18 knows I’m speaking the truth.

Running at a speed where you can not safely maneuver to avoid another boat in an area with any traffic at all is an irresponsible and likely illegal act. Bragging about it does not show you in a favorable light, even though you managed to avoid a collision in this case.

I'm not favorably impressed by your behavior.

Jim

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Jammer

That explains much. We have one or two of those locally.

Like you, their operators presume that because it is difficult to do anything in a Donzi except go fast in a straight line and make a lot of noise, that they are entitled to go fast in a straight line and make a lot of noise.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

I'm curious. Wingie seems to think power boaters feel entitled to the water right in front of their bows, yet here you are whinging about your entitlement to the water astern of you.

500 m is a bit more than "right in front of their bow".

All I am saying is that powerboats at speed should maybe not be on a course that takes them so close to sailboats. When there's the whole rest of a Great Lake (or a gulf, or an ocean or whatever) to drive on.

But if a powerboat still needs to do that, yes crossing behind a sailboat is a bit kinder, if anyone cares.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Rumrace

We still have a power boat. Just finished almost building it. It’s an 86 Donzi with a lovely 6.8l LS3 my Grandson and I donned matching red helmets and headed out from Humber bat where we dropped it in. We met wife and daughter out from port credit got them to give us a slow radar powered chase boat. ( shipping lane from Hamilton )
Running at 40knots jumping waves I’m sure the sailboat missed the bright red boat with white strip grabbing air. At the last minute he cut in front of us. If we move to hard to port we die, if we chop the throttle we sink. Anyone who knows the Donzi 18 knows I’m speaking the truth. Solution put the hammer down turn 2 degrees to port come spiting out of a wave sucking his stern under @ 65n. Get that thick rubber neck working.
Everything nice and legal like.
Ol thick neck can waddle back to his lawn chair clique and babble about rude boaters not giving clear way.
It’s fun keeps the whole nihilism thing meaningful

Maybe a Donzi isn't quite the excellent boat I thought it was. I never operated one but for many years I ran fast offshore powerboats and I loved them. Still do actually. Blew a few props off coming back off big air. The fastest boat I ran was an outboard which ran a little over 65kn. Not so much by todays standards.

But Rumrace, I know that properly handled those boats, even in rough water, can be turned. It just needs good hands on the wheel and a careful throttle foot. AND it needs some anticipation about what is going on ahead. If you are out of control on that Donzi 18 then you either need to slow it down or get better at driving. And bragging about scaring a sailboat with a close call...That is just plain hoon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoon.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

Did you ever think that when they started in that direction there may have been no chance of being close?
Yacht throws in a few tacks, heads up a bit on gust and now they are looking more likely to be in a close situation.

That's what sailing is. And why regulations grant them the right of way.

What rule (colregs or etiquette) dictates that powerboats at speed are entitled to clear straight tracks regardless of actual traffic and its makeup?

There's this wheel on most powerboats, that if one turns it a little bit this way or that, the boat changes course by a corresponding amount this way or that. It's amazing.

Yes some sailors can be dicks. (and some motoring sailboats have been real dicks to us). But thinking one is entitled to speed close to sailboats and the sailboats have to yield is ... what? prudent?

Like you, I avoid overtrafficked areas; it's just a messy combo of ignorance and ego.

[Knotical]

Originally Posted by Rumrace

It’s more fun in a big powerboat cause the wake will tear the rudder off a rude sailor

Wow, just wow, in your quest for a self-centered tirade you actually wish harm on a fellow boater, I hope I never see you in my local waters.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Rumrace

We still have a power boat. Just finished almost building it. It’s an 86 Donzi with a lovely 6.8l LS3 my Grandson and I donned matching red helmets and headed out from Humber bat where we dropped it in. We met wife and daughter out from port credit got them to give us a slow radar powered chase boat. ( shipping lane from Hamilton )
Running at 40knots jumping waves I’m sure the sailboat missed the bright red boat with white strip grabbing air. At the last minute he cut in front of us. If we move to hard to port we die, if we chop the throttle we sink. Anyone who knows the Donzi 18 knows I’m speaking the truth. Solution put the hammer down turn 2 degrees to port come spiting out of a wave sucking his stern under @ 65n. Get that thick rubber neck working.
Everything nice and legal like.
Ol thick neck can waddle back to his lawn chair clique and babble about rude boaters not giving clear way.
It’s fun keeps the whole nihilism thing meaningful

Oh, how embarrassing. And a grandfather, so age doesn't seem to help in all cases.