Colregs Etiquette

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

If you tacked in front of him when he is 500m away, then you failed to stand on as required by the colregs. Thank you for illustrating my point so well.

Lodesman, you seem to have missed the significant point: Often (usually) a sailboat tacks because he cannot continue on his course, due to obstructions, proximity of land, shallow water, or wind conditions which require it. Secondly, tacking implies that the sailboat is going upwind. You know of course that a sailboat cannot go directly into the wind, so if he cannot continue on his existing course, and must change direction to avoid going aground, for example, he must either tack or entirely reverse course and go backwards and your suggestion is that he "stand on"?

But the powerboat, going 20 knots, would take 45 seconds to cover those 500 meters. Watch the second hand of your clock. 45 seconds is a plenty of time for a power boat to react, all he has to do is turn the wheel or back off the throttle. Either way, he is required to do something and he would have plenty of time to do so.

What? Do we think the powerboat has there right to a clear path 500 mts ahead in which no boat can intrude? What about Rumrace? He travels at 35kts. How much of a clear path is he entitled to? In one minute he covers half a mile. "All you guys out there, I'm coming at 35kts, so the next mile is mine, regardless of Colregs."

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

[500m is] a 1/4 mile away. Their speed is absolutely irrelevant. If your tack is going to create a risk of collision, then you shouldn't tack. Delay, ease the sheets, luff up if necessary, but don't sail as if you have "right of way." You don't!

"Risk of collision" - as in having 30 to 45 seconds to nudge one's powerboat steering wheel by 3 degrees or less? (God forbid that speeding powerboats should give sailboats a wide miss just out of courtesy ) No, I think your expectations are unrealistic.

Half a km out, powerboat vs sailboat, it's not that easy to make accurate judgements as to exact course, anyway. (freighters or other large craft excepted ) That far out, one would probably have to aim to collide.

[Rumrace]

I broke my first boat in 1958. Been breaking them since non stop. I’m one of the polite boaters who doesn’t have the time to cure the stupid. I don’t separate boating manners into sail or power. The only reason power boater are a larger group of dummies is there are more power boats.
I just know as a power boater I saw obnoxious sailors and powerboaters. As a sailor I listen to more romantic talk about another power boater not giving them way.
Ah poor baby.
As a sailor I make a point not to kick someone off cruise cause I can. I don’t want my fellow boater to kick off auto pilot or waste fuel to get back on plane where they get their best range. Real boaters respect the limitations and the comforts of other boaters. Give a little get a lot System is alive and well .
Sea Doos which blitz quiet anchorages. Expect it. Don’t get mad it cause wrinkles.
If you are fixated on judging someone with a few honest words maybe boating or society in general ain’t for you. **** ****

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Rumrace

As a sailor I make a point not to kick someone off cruise cause I can.

Me neither.

I don’t want my fellow boater to kick off auto pilot or waste fuel to get back on plane where they get their best range. Real boaters respect the limitations and the comforts of other boaters. Give a little get a lot System is alive and well.

The majority of boats we encounter - sail, power, jetskiis even - are considerate. Just about everyone exchanges a wave. Real problems are notable because they are so rare.

It's not considerate to take a fast beeline on autopilot from pt A to B and to expect that everyone else must keep outta the way. It's less than considerate to charge through a sailboat race course, or near the entrance to a yacht club. If someone has to momentarily kick off autopilot to change course, they were on a poor course to begin with.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

... restricted channel, traffic... sounds like you were actually in the right to stand on.

I know.. Mindblowin innit..!!!

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Lodesman, you seem to have missed the significant point: Often (usually) a sailboat tacks because he cannot continue on his course, due to obstructions, proximity of land, shallow water, or wind conditions which require it. Secondly, tacking implies that the sailboat is going upwind. You know of course that a sailboat cannot go directly into the wind, so if he cannot continue on his existing course, and must change direction to avoid going aground, for example, he must either tack or entirely reverse course and go backwards and your suggestion is that he "stand on"?

But the powerboat, going 20 knots, would take 45 seconds to cover those 500 meters. Watch the second hand of your clock. 45 seconds is a plenty of time for a power boat to react, all he has to do is turn the wheel or back off the throttle. Either way, he is required to do something and he would have plenty of time to do so.

What? Do we think the powerboat has there right to a clear path 500 mts ahead in which no boat can intrude? What about Rumrace? He travels at 35kts. How much of a clear path is he entitled to? In one minute he covers half a mile. "All you guys out there, I'm coming at 35kts, so the next mile is mine, regardless of Colregs."

Oh malarkey. 99.9% of the time there are no obstructions or navigational hazards that require the sailboater to tack at that moment. 45 seconds - if it only takes 45 seconds for the powerboat to cover that distance, then surely the sailboat could wait 45 secs before tacking.
What does it matter what speed Rumrace is going? If he is aiming at clear water, why would you feel entitled to get in his way?

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by boatman61

I know.. Mindblowin innit..!!!

Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

Oh malarkey. 99.9% of the time there are no obstructions or navigational hazards that require the sailboater to tack at that moment. 45 seconds - if it only takes 45 seconds for the powerboat to cover that distance, then surely the sailboat could wait 45 secs before tacking.
What does it matter what speed Rumrace is going? If he is aiming at clear water, why would you feel entitled to get in his way?

Oh really? 99.9% of the time a sailboat does not have to tack, he can just continue on? Can you cite any such statistics, or is that just your feeling? You apparently have not done much sailing.

As to someone's (anyone's) entitlement to clear water ahead of him, (a half mile, a quarter of a mile, or any such distance) that no one can intrude upon? That is ludicrous. I suppose that if there were three powerboats side by side going 20 knots they would own a lane 100mtrs wide and half a mile ahead of them? "Clear out boys, we're commin' through".

[thinwater]

The obvious take away is that if the COLREGS solution is not unequivocally obvious, as supported by the actions of the boats involved (someone giving way, for example), you need to communicate or stay well clear, because misunderstandings happen. It is not about etiquette.


As for the belief you should stay clear of boats under spinnaker, be aware this is in direct conflict with COLREGS unless you avoid very early. If I am reaching or running with a chute I am expecting you to stand on and I will bear away and take your transom if that is the require response. I will not likely round up, mostly because either passing cleaning in front or bearing off are safer and more controlled actions.


Also remember, and few sailors do, that when you are sailing to windward you can always slow down by letting the sheets go. One advantage of this action is that the other boat will likely understand you are just slowing and not turning or tacking. Same when you are motoring; just pulling the throttle back is enough in many crossing situations. It would be your first reflex if you were driving a car, but strangely, not when driving a boat.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Oh really? 99.9% of the time a sailboat does not have to tack, he can just continue on? Can you cite any such statistics, or is that just your feeling? You apparently have not done much sailing.

As to someone's (anyone's) entitlement to clear water ahead of him, (a half mile, a quarter of a mile, or any such distance) that no one can intrude upon? That is ludicrous. I suppose that if there were three powerboats side by side going 20 knots they would own a lane 100mtrs wide and half a mile ahead of them? "Clear out boys, we're commin' through".

Can you cite any statistics proving your argument?
Does being condescending about other's sailing experience make you feel better? If you really want to compare bona fides, I'm sure you've done more "sailing", but I'd wager I've got you beat in sea-miles.
I've done enough sailing that I know there has never been a point where I've needed to tack in front of another vessel. And I've done enough deck watches to know that a lot of sailors (sail and power) do not know the rules.

Why do you keep assuming there's some kind of entitlement? Learn the Colregs - there are no entitlements - there are responsibilities.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

Can you cite any statistics proving your argument?
Does being condescending about other's sailing experience make you feel better? If you really want to compare bona fides, I'm sure you've done more "sailing", but I'd wager I've got you beat in sea-miles.
I've done enough sailing that I know there has never been a point where I've needed to tack in front of another vessel. And I've done enough deck watches to know that a lot of sailors (sail and power) do not know the rules.

Why do you keep assuming there's some kind of entitlement? Learn the Colregs - there are no entitlements - there are responsibilities.

I am not being condescending when I say you don't understand sailing if you believe that sailing vessels don't ever NEED to tack, they can just stand on. People don't tack for giggles. They tack because the situation requires it.

And tacking into open water 500mtrs away from an oncoming power boat is, in my view, not "tacking in front of another vessel". How far ahead of a vessel do you think a sailboat has to be so as not to be considered "tacking in front of it"?

And I am not assuming any entitlement, but you seem to think that a power vessel is entitled to unencumbered use of all the water in front of it.

Please tell me which Colreg rule says that as a sailboat I have a responsibility not to tack if it will put me 500mtrs ahead of a powerboat?

[rslifkin]

I wouldn't set the bar at a specific distance. But instead, if tacking a little sooner or later means less boats will have to alter their course then that's the better way to do it. Nothing requires it be done that way, but courtesy and convenience dictates it's a good idea.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by thinwater

...Also remember, and few sailors do, that when you are sailing to windward you can always slow down by letting the sheets go...

Of course one can release the sheets on a sailboat and it will slow down.

However, on my sailboat, and on many sailboats, they will coast onward for a considerable time and distance, and then when they do come to a stop or a near stop they may have difficulty getting underway again and will often have little directional control.

Bringing a sailboat to a stop or to slow down by releasing the sheets is not a quick or sure way to avoid a collision. In a situation where a tack is required due to external obstacles finding oneself instead in irons is not a comfortable place to be in.

And on a windy day flogging sails and flailing sheets is very dangerous and may be damaging to the sails and equipment. I don't recommend this unless it is an emergency.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Rumrace

For years I’ve been watching sailboat tack right in front of my 8 ton power boat cruising at 35 n with no darn brakes claiming the right of way. Some educated boating fraternity gives them the rights to exercise bad manners base on the edge of interpretation of rules. Water drama queens looking for a new adventure to discuss their latest superior boating expertise.

I must have missed that lesson but I don’t but in lines either.

I see bad manners on sidewalks, learned to expect them on the water. It’s all the other nice boaters make it worth while

They are not claiming right of way. The rules are clear, you asa power boat should stay out of the way of sail boats. Hence if they tack “ right in front of “ you , you are way too close to begin with

I suggest you study the COLRegs a little more closely

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

I wouldn't set the bar at a specific distance. But instead, if tacking a little sooner or later means less boats will have to alter their course then that's the better way to do it. Nothing requires it be done that way, but courtesy and convenience dictates it's a good idea.

Not distance, but opportunity. aka time. If a speeding powerboat is like a minute or more away from me, and it's time for me to tack, I'm gonna tack. If there's less time, I might hold off, but I will still be wondering why a powerboat skipper has deemed it necessary to bear straight down on a sailboat and miss me by only a few boatlengths.

But apparently it would be too big an imposition for a sailboat to ask a powerboat skipper to momentarily exit autopilot, or just bump the heading a few degrees. Even though it's expected by colregs.

Just came back from a lovely 2.5 hr sail on L Ont, btw. Lots of waves and smiles from sailors and power boaters alike. Nice to be reminded that most people do want to get along, and aren't laying assumptions on each other.