Colregs Etiquette

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

Electric boats are an interesting case and I'm not really sure what to do with that one.

The 4 - 5 seconds may not matter if the engine isn't already running, but in my mind, if it's not running, I wouldn't count on it being there for this purpose. There's always a chance that it just won't start or that the impeller may fail on startup, etc. So I wouldn't want to have committed to using it.

Any law/rule that requires "in my mind" is a bad rule and/or a bad assumption.

The engine running to charge the batteries could stall when you throw it in gear or the transmission linkage might fail...If it's not in gear with the prop turning, it's no motoring...end of story.

[jtsailjt]

All this discussion about the engine running or not running or being in gear or not in gear is irrelevant to the question because it’s something that can’t be determined from your boat at the time when you have to make your decision about how you’re going to handle the crossing. It also doesn’t matter whether you have a spinnaker up or are using just your staysail or mainsail. If his sails are up and you don’t see a cone or steaming light you have to assume it’s a sailboat no matter what you think you see coming out of the other boats transom. All that can change IF you clarify by successfully communicating with him via your VHF.

[fxykty]

All the ones saying that if the engine is running, even if the gear is neutral, then the vessel should be classified as motor sailing are missing the point. The COLREGs propulsion status is about behaviour - each of the vessel categories manoeuvres in a different way, and the relationship between the vessels will evolve differently. Basically, each more burdened category is less and less restricted in the way that they can manoeuvre in normal circumstances. That is what the definitions capture.

So a vessel that is sailing has more manoeuvring restrictions relative to a power driven vessel (can’t turn straight into the wind, has to adjust sails before changing course, etc) and it is generally the stand on vessel. While a sailing vessel’s engine is running but propeller not turning it has the manoeuvring characteristics of a sailboat, so it cannot be considered, nor should not consider itself, to be power driven. Only once the propeller is engaged shall it become a power driven vessel and display itself as such.

You wouldn’t proactively declare yourself to be restricted in ability to manoeuvre, in anticipation of losing your ability to steer or of deploying a speed limiting drogue?

[slipaway]

It is interesting to read all the opinions on whether a sailing vessel with engine running but not in gear remains a S/V or should be considered a power-driven vessel. There are certainly arguments both ways and the actual text of the COLREGS (and the US federal law/regulations that mirror them) remains ambiguous. The COLREGS are to be interpreted in light of its specific language any any court decisions that interpret the.. Unfortunately, there are no court cases specifically on point (in the US and UK anyway). So, I come back to the recognized academic treatise discussing all aspects of the COLREGS- Farwells (https://www.usni.org/press/books/far...-ninth-edition). The discussion of this issue comes down on the side of treating the S/V as a power driven vessel. Only one court case (from the 1800s) was found that relates and it was not directly on-point. So unless, and until there is a definitive decision- either by better definition in the COLREGS or a court interpretation- I come down on the side of the Farwell analyses (the author has certainly done more research on the matter than I have). Of course, as we can see here there are good arguments to the contrary, but they remain just that, opinions. Everyone is free to operate their vessel the way they want. When I am underway, if my engine is running I treat my S/V as power-driven. It is the most conservative (and in my opinion safer) approach.

[boatman61]

There's a lot of crap being spouted here.. the worst being the assumption two boat lengths is not enough for a competent Skipper to take evasive action to avoid another sailing vessel, especially as so many claim to be 'racers'..

[seandepagnier]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

As far as I'm concerned, engine running qualifies as under power. It doesn't matter if it's already in gear. It's running, so it's available for immediate use in maneuvering.

what about electric that can be used with a switch anytime for just a few seconds even?

[seandepagnier]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

All this discussion about the engine running or not running or being in gear or not in gear is irrelevant to the question because it’s something that can’t be determined from your boat at the time when you have to make your decision about how you’re going to handle the crossing. It also doesn’t matter whether you have a spinnaker up or are using just your staysail or mainsail. If his sails are up and you don’t see a cone or steaming light you have to assume it’s a sailboat no matter what you think you see coming out of the other boats transom. All that can change IF you clarify by successfully communicating with him via your VHF.

Yes, but we could require every engine to have a wireless identification system that broadcasts it's power output. This way we could detect cheaters after the collision.

Finally, get google to install the devices as part of the deal they get free tracking and microphone and video. You will accept a video camera that you neither own nor control onboard and attempts to thwart or tamper would similarly be a violation.

In the next version the computer would also yell at whoever is wrong before (and after) the collision, and for certain boaters (those who crash often) it would have the ability to "take over" like a teacher and by using the autopilot to avoid the other boat or at least minimize injuries/damage.

[AKA-None]

Originally Posted by boatman61

There's a lot of crap being spouted here.. the worst being the assumption two boat lengths is not enough for a competent Skipper to take evasive action to avoid another sailing vessel, especially as so many claim to be 'racers'..

Hmmm what I do when racing has as much applicability to the discussion as driving a car in traffic is like being on a race track

So sorry but I disagree in this case

[StuM]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

The idea is that the sailboat with an engine that's 1 gear shift away from being used (so nothing preventing just popping it in gear) should consider themselves as motorsailing and claim that status, at least in confined or crowded waters. If they don't claim that status, then they must still be assumed to be sailing.

Do tell, what is this status of "motorsailing" that you talk about?
Where is it defined? What "privilege" does it confer?

[StuM]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

Electric boats are an interesting case and I'm not really sure what to do with that one.

What's the problem? If it's using the motor to propel or help to propel the vessel, it's a power driven vessel. If it's only using sails, it's a sailing vessel. End of story.

[AKA-None]

Seems straight forward to me

If you don’t know for a fact that it’s being driven by a motor then treat it as sail driven

[Sojourner]

Regarding my friend who got t-boned, according to their story, the tanker came at them from behind the jib. It is a big cat, so no excuse, it has radar and ais for sure. But clearly watchkeeping wasn't kept at all. Not even talking about the professional tanker crew... I don't know if they were playing chicken or not, sails up and standing on come hell or high water (or a chemical tanker apparently).

As for the other stuff, I don't have a particularly "modern" boat (Amel 1991) but the key is always in the ignition, I'm usually at the helm, and my old perkins will fire up within half a turn every single time I push the button. It is pretty much as 'always on' as an electric ever could be. If that literal 1 second fire up will make the difference in anything, I've not done my job correctly to keep us out of harm's way, no matter who is in the right. I'll change 2 degrees a mile away without even having to adjust the sails and not have to worry about it.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by AKA-None

Hmmm what I do when racing has as much applicability to the discussion as driving a car in traffic is like being on a race track

So sorry but I disagree in this case

We'll let's face it, on a boat your travelling at walking pace or a slow jog.. so your comparison with cars has about as much relevance as comparing apples to pumpkins.
From the OP's description I would have come to the same conclusion that the other boat was motorsailing.. that's not to say I would have followed the same actions however from the account of wind speed and apparent angles I would guess there was motor assist.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by boatman61

From the OP's description I would have come to the same conclusion that the other boat was motorsailing.. that's not to say I would have followed the same actions however from the account of wind speed and apparent angles I would guess there was motor assist.

If they have sails up and are not displaying a cone, acting on a guess about their status and assuming that they would respond as a power driven vessel is IMNSHO, plain foolish when you are clearly the windward vessel.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by boatman61

From the OP's description I would have come to the same conclusion that the other boat was motorsailing.. that's not to say I would have followed the same actions however from the account of wind speed and apparent angles I would guess there was motor assist.

You can "believe" anything you like but the appropriate response is to react as if he's under sail until proven otherwise.