Colregs Etiquette

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by Sojourner

Not in the slightest, this was open waters between Greece and Turkey. Broad daylight. Incredible

I'm sure there's more to this story. Why did your friend stand on to a crunch? A T-bone collision implies absolutely no mitigating actions. Do you know the actual location?

[GrowleyMonster]

Originally Posted by StuM

Althoug COLREGs do say "at least", Night_Sailor's post is the first time I've ever heard of anyone actually advocating anything other than the conventional five blasts.

Since it is obvious that more than five could be confusing, COLREGS allowing more than five notwithstanding, I would just sound 5, so the other party can just wake up, evaluate, and act, without consulting the rules to see what six blasts or eleven blasts or whatever, means.

[rslifkin]

I also stick to 5 short, then pause and repeat if needed. I figure that's got less risk of confusion than giving more blasts in the same sequence.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Lazy shorthand as I already admitted.

Speaking of psychology, it's quite interesting to note that there's almost zero discussion about the discourtesy of a powerboat choosing to run at speed so close to sailboats as to create a colregs situation. .. There is only lawyering about who should do what in that avoidable situation.

Sorry, I know you are fairly well versed in the colregs, so I should have clarified, it wasn't directed at you so much but what many sailors believe even when they know what the rules are...hence "Freudian slip"

Sure powerboaters can be jerks but that's not the subject of the thread. As previously stated by me and others, the authorities are happy to fault both parties.

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

My point was the people jumping to the assumption that if they can see exhaust that the boat is under power and should be treated as such. That's faulty logic unless there is clear confirmation that the boat is operating under power.



?

I agree with that and would even take it a step further because I can’t imagine how anyone could possibly gain “clear confirmation” that a boat with sails up is being propelled by the engine unless you called them on the radio and asked them. If sails are up and no day shape or steaming light is observed, then you have to assume it’s sailing and treat the crossing situation accordingly.

Also, waiting to the point of only 2 boat lengths distance to take action is ridiculous, more like playing chicken rather than applying the COLREGS appropriately.

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by GrowleyMonster

When you are docking a power driven vessel and you take the engine out of gear, do you stop being a power driven vessel for that moment?

No, because a) the COLREGS language on propulsion machinery not in use only applies to sailboats, and power boats (as a rule) do not have sails and are not sailboats.


Exactly when a sailboat that has been motorsailing but has disengaged the propulsion machinery is no longer a power driven vessel for COLREGs purposes, is something a fact finder would determine based on the totality of the situation.

When you are running the engine of a sailboat in a narrow channel or pass, in close proximity to other vessels, bridges or other structures, why are you running the engine, if it is not in gear? So it is ready in all respects for immediate maneuvering. [...] If there is no intent to use the prop while maneuvering closely to other vessels, why run the engine?

For any of a number of reasons. For electricity. For hot water. To warm up the engine so it will be reliably available 10 minutes later.

[boatman61]

That does not exclude it being immediately available for collision avoidance should the situation arise.. all one has to do is engage the drive, not dash below to grab a key, insert, start the engine and engage.
Thr boat with engine running could have taken evasive action before the other could have retrieved the key and inserted it.
Cop out reason..
A bit like "I was on AIS watch even though I have radar, not my fault you don't has AIS.."

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by boatman61

That does not exclude it being immediately available for collision avoidance should the situation arise.. all one has to do is engage the drive, not dash below to grab a key, insert, start the engine and engage.
Thr boat with engine running could have taken evasive action before the other could have retrieved the key and inserted it.
Cop out reason..
A bit like "I was on AIS watch even though I have radar, not my fault you don't has AIS.."

I agree with all that but it doesn't change the fact that, early on when the risk of collision is first apparent, a sailboat with the engine running in neutral is still a sailboat for the purposes of determining which boat is stand-on and which is give-way.

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by Jammer

I agree with all that but it doesn't change the fact that, early on when the risk of collision is first apparent, a sailboat with the engine running in neutral is still a sailboat for the purposes of determining which boat is stand-on and which is give-way.

The idea is that the sailboat with an engine that's 1 gear shift away from being used (so nothing preventing just popping it in gear) should consider themselves as motorsailing and claim that status, at least in confined or crowded waters. If they don't claim that status, then they must still be assumed to be sailing.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

The idea is that the sailboat with an engine that's 1 gear shift away from being used (so nothing preventing just popping it in gear) should consider themselves as motorsailing and claim that status, at least in confined or crowded waters. If they don't claim that status, then they must still be assumed to be sailing.

If you leave the key in the ignition, most modern boats in good condition can be started and in gear in 4-5 seconds...are they also considered to be motoring and should claim the status?

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

If you leave the key in the ignition, most modern boats in good condition can be started and in gear in 4-5 seconds...are they also considered to be motoring and should claim the status?

I wouldn't. If the engine isn't running, I wouldn't expect someone to start it for maneuvering. Much like I wouldn't expect an anchored boat to pull their anchor and move. But if the engine has already been made ready for use (even if propulsion wasn't the reason for doing so), it strikes me as a bit stubborn / selfish to say "no, I won't put it in gear, I'm just sailing and won't change that even though I already have the engine running because of XYZ". And in open water with plenty of separation between boats, it's unlikely to matter either way. But if you're coming into a confined area under sail and have the engine running for whatever reason, courtesy and practicality would dictate that you make use of the thing.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

I wouldn't. If the engine isn't running, I wouldn't expect someone to start it for maneuvering. Much like I wouldn't expect an anchored boat to pull their anchor and move. But if the engine has already been made ready for use (even if propulsion wasn't the reason for doing so), it strikes me as a bit stubborn / selfish to say "no, I won't put it in gear, I'm just sailing and won't change that even though I already have the engine running because of XYZ". And in open water with plenty of separation between boats, it's unlikely to matter either way. But if you're coming into a confined area under sail and have the engine running for whatever reason, courtesy and practicality would dictate that you make use of the thing.

I would argue 4-5 seconds is a negligible difference in terms of being ready for use and it's stubborn/selfish to say "no, I won't turn the key and throw the leaver forward....blah, blah, blah...."

What about electric powered boats where it's always ready in an instant and can have the prop turning just as fast as a boat with the diesel running in neutral...should they permanently mount a steaming day shape?

No, either you are under power or you aren't. The ability to be under power quickly is a nice backup (you have to take action if all else fails per the colregs) but it doesn't make you a power vessel until it's engaged.

[rslifkin]

Electric boats are an interesting case and I'm not really sure what to do with that one.

The 4 - 5 seconds may not matter if the engine isn't already running, but in my mind, if it's not running, I wouldn't count on it being there for this purpose. There's always a chance that it just won't start or that the impeller may fail on startup, etc. So I wouldn't want to have committed to using it.

[GrowleyMonster]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

If you leave the key in the ignition, most modern boats in good condition can be started and in gear in 4-5 seconds...are they also considered to be motoring and should claim the status?

No. What guarantee is there, that the engine will immediately roar into life and be absolutely ready and able to immediately provide propulsion, when a key is turned or in my case when a start button is pressed? Key in switch is not the same as engine up and running. I can tell you that in winter, starting my Westerbeast can take a lot of battery if she's cold. In hot weather I get near instant starts.

If it is running, different thing. Neutral is simply one of three instantly operator selectable positions that the gear shift can be in. An operating mode. It is not the same as engine shut down or disabled. Intent notwithstanding, with the engine running, you are immediately able to select Ahead or Astern. Just like in Ahead, you are immediately able to select Neutral or Astern. No difference. There is no starting sequence to worry about and no need to cross fingers or knock on wood or rummage through the seat lockers for a can of starting fluid or WD-40, no seacock to open, no nothing. Engine running is engine running, and when you need to kick her ahead with the prop, what do you do? Not putting the completely functional and already running engine in gear as you approach another vessel is your own conscious and perhaps illogical and reckless decision, not an operating constraint or a maneuverability handicap.

[requiem]

Originally Posted by GrowleyMonster

If it is running, different thing. Neutral is simply one of three instantly operator selectable positions that the gear shift can be in. An operating mode. It is not the same as engine shut down or disabled. Intent notwithstanding, with the engine running, you are immediately able to select Ahead or Astern.

Reminds me of the time I discovered the prop had fallen off.

Also, were you flying a kite or had a preventer rigged, the transition might not be so quick.

I do agree that in sufficiently close quarters it's good seamanship to have the engine ready, or even to hoist the motoring cone, rather than insisting on tacking through with few options to deviate.

One could even argue that it is sometimes required, e.g. if you have a motor and are otherwise unable to keep to the starboard side of a narrow channel, then not transitioning to "power vessel" mode could be considered a Rule 9 violation. Someone upthread mentioned a sail training ship that was fined for not using her engine to effect a perpendicular heading when crossing a TSS lane; this seems a similar situation.