Characteristics of Offshore Yachts

[Jon Eisberg]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Still missing the point. Never said I was unaware of the book...

Ooops, my bad... Please forgive my presumption you were not familiar with the book :-)

Originally Posted by valhalla360

No idea who this author is or what he is espousing as blue water.

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Correction:

(a) Design a safe boat, then live without any of the "goodies" and "comforts"
(b) Design a floating hotel and make it seaworthy.

See what I did there?

You dance around the subject but clearly are implying that anything other than a slow lumbering full keel boat with very limited goodies and comforts for it's size is unseaworthy and that is flat out false.

"Clearly implying...???" Really? Where does he say anything about crab-crushing full keels, or barn door attached rudders, or anything else that might denote a more 'traditional' design?

Is it not possible he might be thinking of any number of more modern boats being produced today, where seaworthiness and offshore capability has beenuppermost in the design brief from its inception, and yet still possess most of the 'comforts' most anyone might desire in a cruising boat?

Any number of modern boats meet such criteria, at least in my view... Boats with fin keels and spade rudders, most of later work of guys like Chuck Paine, Carl Schumacher's Outbound, Dave Pedrick's Leadership 44 are simply the first that come to mind... Boats produced by builders such as Morris, Lyman-Morse, Hylas, are but a few examples of modern boats that represent the best of both worlds, but where seaworthiness and sailing performance are paramount, instead of being secondary to an accommodation plan in their conception...

[skipmac]

With all the discussion about the risks of "being out there" a lot in the context of the Fastnet race and the problems experienced by the boats in the storm, rollovers, etc I think it might be relevant to point out one detail about the Fastnet.

The course is entirely north of latitude 50. Anyone familiar with races in the Southern Ocean have surely heard about the Roaring Forties and worse, the Furious Fifties, indicative of the most ferocious ocean weather on the planet.

The southern storms are definitely worse since they have open ocean all the way around the planet but the northern latitudes can still be ferocious, any time of year.

So if you're using Fastnet as the benchmark you are using a example quite different from the typical Caribbean cruising scene.

[sesmith]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

se-
I see one crucial piece of information missing in those motor vehicles stats. There's no attempt to correlate the number of deaths by the actual number of MILES or HOURS driven per capita.

.

See the graph about half way down in the second link I posted. Crash data per 100 mil miles driven is there and this statement:

"The rate of motor vehicle crash deaths per 100 million miles traveled decreased from 2012 to 2013, returning to the all-time low of 1.10 in 2011. In contrast, the rate was 3.35 in 1975."

The per capita graph is further up on the page. Both show the same trend. There are more cars on the road, more people to drive those cars, and less total deaths in car accidents in 2013 than there were in the 60's and 70's.

The cars are safer (the drivers I saw today, coming back from the Annapolis spring boat show, sure as heck weren't)...back to the boats.

[jwcolby54]

Originally Posted by skipmac

Thanks. I've been saying this for years but generally doesn't seem to get through. My experience, if one does as you suggest, that is take into consideration the seasonal weather patterns for the area he/she is cruising and pay attention to the forecasts then the likelihood of encountering really serious weather is just about nil.

Of course high latitude sailing then all bets are off.

And then last week in the GOM a bunch of boats capsized and at least one death because a 50+ MPH gust of wind on a weather front.

So much for "can just be avoided by watching the weather".

[colemj]

You do understand that was a 10 minute burst that hit a fleet of predominantly dinghies and other small coastal craft?

That event really doesn't fit your thesis, nor negates mine and skipmac's regarding cruising grounds, seasons and weather.

One can take your line of reasoning to such an extreme that one will only go to sea in a foam-lined lifeboat. The trick is to understand the vast and varied field of boat design in between.

Mark

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by jwcolby54

And then last week in the GOM a bunch of boats capsized and at least one death because a 50+ MPH gust of wind on a weather front.

So much for "can just be avoided by watching the weather".

Have been too busy working on the boat to follow the Mobile thing but are you saying there was no forecast at all of bad weather in the area?

Seems like every night for the last week there have been severe storms in the central US. The last day or so I recall seeing east TX and Louisiana on the news which I'm pretty sure is right close to Alabama. Considering this I would be surprised that there was zero warning of severe weather in the area but I'm ready to admit I'm wrong if someone posts to the contrary.

[Robin3]

Time to investigate mass hysteria yet?? When the waves start breaking over the armchairs it is surely best only to cross oceans in 747s.

[jwcolby54]

Mark, give me a break. My thesis is simple, some boats are more able to stand up than others. Your's appears to be "don't be out there in weather".

This weather happened. Weather happens all over the world. We don't get to pick and choose never to experience something like this. What kind of boats it happened to is irrelevant. What is relevant is that this weather happened. It could have been your boat, it could have been any boat. This thing looked like a squall. And then a 100 mph gust happened. According to the reports there were 10 foot waves immediately during that experiences.

I have never said, nor do I believe that sailing the Bahamas is the same as sailing the north Atlantic or the horn of Africa.

But ANY BOAT of our size could have been knocked flat by this. What happens next? THAT IS THE POINT.

What happens next? Does the boat right itself? Some will some won't. Will it roll right over ant point the keel to the moon??? Some will and some wont.

Let's call a halt to this entire conversation eh? I think it is old and tired.

I think you know way more than I about this subject. But I also believe that some boats will and some won't. You seem to want me to believe this will never happen if I "pick my season" so not worry about it.

I got that you want me to learn to sail and "stay out of the way of weather". I got it.

Thanks! Can we talk about old cars crashing now?

[jwcolby54]

Originally Posted by Robin3

Time to investigate mass hysteria yet?? When the waves start breaking over the armchairs it is surely best only to cross oceans in 747s.

I'm with ya on that. I have just discovered that none of us have any business sailing if any weather is out there anywhere close by. And apparently weather never ever just springs up unexpectedly so I don't need to worry about that either.

I learn something every day!

With that in mind I have bought a bath tub and rigged a sail. I'll meet ya in the Bahamas in a few weeks. No serious weather forecast.

I just feel so free knowing all my fears were for naught.

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by sesmith

"The rate of motor vehicle crash deaths per 100 million miles traveled decreased from 2012 to 2013, returning to the all-time low of 1.10 in 2011. In contrast, the rate was 3.35 in 1975."

Interestingly in Europe the figure is 0.75 per 100 million vehicle km. or 1.2 per 100million miles. (I don't know if your 100 million miles travelled is vehicle km or passenger km).
So very similar, despite the fact that cars are lighter in Europe, and driven a lot faster...
But very interesting is that the fatality rate in the "old EU" is significantly lower than in the "new EU". This shows another important factor in road safety: The quality of the roads.

Now back to boats: How can we improve the quality of the oceans :-)

[K_V_B]

It appears to me that the biggest factor that off shore capable boats are judged by is "what side of the atlantic are they being build". As in:

"If it's build on my side of the Atlantic it can be a good boat. If it is build on the other side of the Atlantic it can never be a good boat..."

I mean, for many this side of the pond the quintessential off shore yacht is the OVNI. A boat that hasn't ben mentioned here yet, even though we're already on page 6...
I wonder what "Desirable and Undesirable Characteristics of Offshore Yachts" has to say about that boat.

[Cap Erict3]

Originally Posted by jwcolby54

Mark, give me a break. My thesis is simple, some boats are more able to stand up than others. Your's appears to be "don't be out there in weather".



This weather happened. Weather happens all over the world. We don't get to pick and choose never to experience something like this. What kind of boats it happened to is irrelevant. What is relevant is that this weather happened. It could have been your boat, it could have been any boat. This thing looked like a squall. And then a 100 mph gust happened. According to the reports there were 10 foot waves immediately during that experiences.



I have never said, nor do I believe that sailing the Bahamas is the same as sailing the north Atlantic or the horn of Africa.



But ANY BOAT of our size could have been knocked flat by this. What happens next? THAT IS THE POINT.



What happens next? Does the boat right itself? Some will some won't. Will it roll right over ant point the keel to the moon??? Some will and some wont.



Let's call a halt to this entire conversation eh? I think it is old and tired.



I think you know way more than I about this subject. But I also believe that some boats will and some won't. You seem to want me to believe this will never happen if I "pick my season" so not worry about it.



I got that you want me to learn to sail and "stay out of the way of weather". I got it.



Thanks! Can we talk about old cars crashing now?

Excuse me if I prefer to forgo the car safety analogy.

You started this discussion pleased with the knowledge that the right boat would give an edge when faced with adverse weather conditions. I am sure that you continue to feel that way. I am also sure that you will not and have heard any valid arguments against your hypothesis.

My boat has never been touted as anything but a coastal cruiser. I have 9000 lbs of lead in my keel that can and has righted my boat after being heeled by a strong gust. It is my standard procedure that I dump wind from my sails and point up while deciding what to do next.

I have been sailing quite comfortably after such an event while listening to reports of vessels overturned in the same area. My boats size and weight makes a big difference.

There are many boats, large and small, that are well thought of in the racing world that are considered tender. They run with the lee rail in the water and are ranked highly as Water boats">blue water boats. They will be the first to broach and the first to recover.

Most cruisers that I know need/want a wider beamed boat. Most boaters that I know don't cruise.

Where ever you are in sailboat issue, I am sure there is one with a shapely stern that can catch your eye, turn your head, melt your heart and empty your wallet. It might even protect you.

Ashley's Light has looked after me on many an occasion.


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Looking for another pretty place to work on the boat.

[jwcolby54]

Yep, right you are.

[David_Old_Jersey]

I am not a scientist, but am pretty sure the laws of physics have not changed recently. Or since year dot, for boats or anything else. Lol.

For those who can prove otherwise a Nobel prize awaits - even if results still disputed on cf. Lol.

[David_Old_Jersey]

Another thing not touched upon to make a vessel blue water more capable is not only skilled / experienced skipper and crew....but crew numbers. Including spares! (They break or get lost. Lol).