Captain/Owner Sleeping at the Helm

[Ndavies]

Two issues:
1 - If you don't like the way the Owner runs his boat, then have a discussion and be prepared to leave.

2. Interesting - the neutral/reverse issue is an interesting one. I have a 2019 Lagoon with yanmars and SD60s. There was a sticker at the helm saying that boat must be in neutral if sailing over 8 kts with fixed blade props. I have Flexofold folding. The SD60 manual says "when the boat is sailed and the engine is off, shift can be in neutral and in this case the prop is free to rotate; OR in reverse to lock a fixed prop, fold a folding prop, or to feather a feathering prop..........do not put the shifter in forward position, otherwise the sail drive could be damaged"

I guess the answer is - read your specific manual.

[DeepCut]

Originally Posted by Chotu

My thoughts exactly when reading this thread.

Mine too. I saw nothing in OP to indicate the gear was not placed into reverse and back to neutral.

Communication helpful. Discussion helpful.

I like the idea of showing captain "I set my alarm on iPhone for 10 minutes to remind me to check horizon".

[BadDecisions]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

I'n totally gobsmacked that your reading comprehension skills are so low you can't differentiate engine damage from transmission damage.

[emoji23] I was wondering if you caught that too... Also it is a mfg recommendation for"sail drives" did that cat have sail drives?

[tootalltony]

There are 2 schools of thought on this

Leave the engine in gear when off-------this will result in the shaft not turning and will save wear on the cutlass bearing and all the other bearings
on the drive shaft. This will mean no vibration and is the happiest position for the engine. The down side is that there will be some drag as the fixed props can't spin freely...........but this reduced speed is not even measurable

Captain Tony

[jim King]

Right or wrong. The Captains word is final. Sure, your were right about the noise and, yes, it was the prop turning, which stopped the second you put it in reverse. For some reason I thought this was the correct maneuver while sailing while the engine is off as it doesn't wear on the transmission. Seems the word from Yanmar differs. I know you will get better distance in neutral as there is less drag.
I would have made the suggestion to the skipper and asked if we could do a quick test (with his approval).
Jim

[Lihuedooley77]

When having unknown crew or skipper , well, that can be somewhat problematic.

Sometimes , they are outstanding, and your experience is fantastic, and even life long friends made. Other times, it is an absolute trial, every day, and once in port you never want to see them again, let along have them as crew, or even a passenger.

WATCH STANDING IS EXACTLY THAT......STAND THE BLOODY WATCH, STAY ALERT, NOTE POSITION ON CHART, AND OR IN THE SHIPS LOG. MAINTAIN PROPER SAIL TRIM, PROPER HEADING, WATCH FOR TRAFFIC, AND PAY ATTENTION TO WEATHER, WIND DIRECTION, SEAS, NOTE ANY DISCREPANCIES ETC.

The OP did just fine in advising Sleepy as to the vibration, and the owner apparently had not read the vessels manual . If he was aware of the warning of NOT leaving the gears in reverse, he should have explained that to the OP and crew.

But, with the sleeping on watch, that puts the lives of everyone on board in danger, and that is not acceptable.

If possible, we like to sail with the skipper/ owner, or with any crew prior to major passages. On the docks , I listen to whole lot of babble, and I mean ridiculous lies, and stupidity from the ace boat owners and loud warf rats. Some who wound up destroying their vessels .

Many times when invited to sail with these types of skippers, I just politely decline, and I do not want them on board my vessel....even for a day sail.

I also understand when on board some one else's vessel, they are the skipper, and I fully understand that I am crew.

Unless I personally know of their seamanship ability, we just will keep things friendly on shore at the bar or dock. Otherwise, when we act as crew, the name of the game is be a good seaman, follow the skippers orders. As long as the safety of the vessel and crew is not compromised.

End game: FALLING ASLEEP ON WATCH IS TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE.

Oh, and if possible, read the owners manual, if it happens to be on board or preferable prior to the passage making .

The OP did not have the ability to leave the vessel, due to the non stop passages, but even then, getting off on some lone island, might not be the best solution. Do the best you can to keep the vessel safe, and when off watch, check on the owner during his watch, and nudge him awake. Depends in how many are viable watch standers on board.

Fair winds, and great sailing.

Denny

[Defarm]

Looking at this another way: How do we avoid sleepy/drunk/distracted and empty helm seats from running us down while underway? The brilliant observation that Sleepy was on the magenta line speaks to the common practice of way point cruising. I have been near missed a couple of times and once washed up onto a sandbar requiring a 4 hour tide change from a drunk on the wrong side of the channel (yeah you Directors Cut in Florida!). If it’s possible, I set my waypoint with a safe buffer away from the magenta line. In The Bahamas, I’ve watched several times empty helm seats zip by me that are completely oblivious to two ships meeting in a most regrettable way. Boating takes money, not brains.

[thaisail]

Originally Posted by Phisher

I recently crewed on a catamaran from St. Thomas to Ft. Lauderdale. We did a staight shot St. Thomas to Turks and Caicos. I took the Midnight to 4 am watch, which followed the boat owner. On 2 different occasions I show up at the helm for my watch and would have to wake up the boat owner. Each time I woke him he acted as if everything was fine, he would mumble that we are on the magenta line and on course. Whatever sleepy head were my thoughts. This man would not listen to me about several instances and situations. One being the terrible vibration undersail. I questioned why he did not engege the transmissions to the reverse position to stop the vibration. He said that the boat has had that vibration since new (2016 Lagoon 45) and several captains had noted in there logs.(Charter Boat) The vibration was all to obvious that the props were the cause. So I engaged the trannys into reverse BOOM! vibrations gone. I could tell the owner was a little insensed by my observation being correct. Now,how do we deal with know it all captains? Should I have informed the rest of the crew, one being his green wife, about Captain Sleepys issue of falling asleep on watch?

I was working as a chief engineer aboard a Crowley tug boat towing a barge full of mollassis from Mexico to Puerto Rico. We were just off the coast of Jamaica when I went up to the bridge. This was in the early 80s long time ago. I found the mate asleep at the wheel and I got out the megaphone and placed the cone around his ear at full volume, I yelled "wake up"! His elbow came back and slammed into the megaphone and my front tooth was broken in half. We searched in the dark for the missing half of my tooth and glued it back on with superglue. When we got back to San Juan I went to the dentist and they made a crown and to this day the crown is still intact. Moral of the story is to always hold your mouth away from the megaphone when waking a fellow crewmembers who is sleeping on watch!

[MicHughV]

" money...not brains" ????????

[Rhumbline]

I believe the Yanmar advisory for sailing with the gear in neutral applies only to Saildrives. This is from reading the actual advisory. I've been sailing for years (3hm35f engine) mostly with the drive in reverse, as I learned, with no problem. It definitely stops the shaft rotation/vibration.

[betwys1]

Originally Posted by betwys1

Not helicoptor rotor and not feathering prop, but fixed pitch air props. But I read the actual experimental studies and I reversed my view on boat props: Locked = more draggy.

It is not everyday that I am so easily refuted by experimental results concerning airscrew drag versus water screw drag. So I put the question to people qualified in aerodynamics (but precious few who are knowledgeable in hydrodynamics) and I received a valuable clue. Air propellers usually have two blades, sometimes three, and rarely four. The blade count is increased when the available power is too large to be coupled by increasing the chord of a two blade prop. Even when the greatest power has to be transmitted to a propeller (think 2000 HP to an 8 ft diameter prop ) The SOLIDITY (ratio of blade plan area to disk area) is low ~ rarely above 6% or 0.06 whereas the solidity of even the smallest power boat propeller is around 100% (actually more - where the leading edge overlaps the trailing edge of the next blade) and this difference may be decisive. It is not clear to me why solidity should be so high in low power applications - I seem to recall at least one vintage outboard whose prop solidity was closer to the air prop range - namely, the British Seagull. This had a solidity of 25% Look!

https://imgur.com/2Qr2sir

Even so, it used four wide chord blades on rather low power!

[barnakiel]

The problem is obesity and blood sugar levels.


Obesity is the result of the lifestyle. Plenty of nutrients and not enough movement. Cats do not roll. Not good for bowel action either.


People that fall asleep should be assigned watches in bright daylight, and at times that they are naturally most active.


Night watches 00:00 to 06:00 should be done by the young guns.


And you know, captain, captain. Better use 'owner'. A captain assumes some level of skill and quality. Owning a thing does not make one a captain. Unless we talk a captain cap like this.




b.

[Jimmyhenry]

Sleepiness is a watch problem. A method we have used is to have open ended watches. If you feel sleepy wake up the next. If you feel fine then continue. I’ve done some 8 hours. And some 1 or 2 hours. But you need a versatile easy going crew. Kiwis are good like this.
Pete

[Hermia II]

On the issue of propellers spinning. On my previous Gallant 53 there was a Perkins with a BW Velvetdrive hydraulic transmission. If it was left spinning the gearbox would seize because there would be no lubrication. A special brake had been installed on the prop shaft. So it is not clear cut at all.

[PineyWoodsPete]

Originally Posted by aeronautic1

“So you think it was a good idea to slow the boat and risked potential damage to the engines by locking the props contrary to the skippers wishes and the manufacturer's instructions? Now how do we deal with know it all crew?”

Treat them no different than know-it-all internet posters? It’s a known FACT that a free-wheeling spinning propeller creates more DRAG than a stationary propeller. Ask any pilot or flight instructor.

Uhhh, no such thing as a free-wheeling aircraft fixed-pitch prop I know of, unless you have devised a way to uncouple your Cub 4-banger from its prop. The prop will turn the engine over with high resistance from cylinder compression and reciprocating mass drag until the air speed drops below a certain point, and the prop stops.

The sailing equivalent is a free-wheeling prop with only shaft bearing and tranny gear drag, which is coupled to a high output generator - say 5kW, and this "work" will slow the prop rotation and have an adverse effect on boat speed just as a partially braked aircraft prop definitely will. With true free-wheeling, not nearly so much.