Can a broker rip you off when selling your boat?

[Brioche]

Having handled a lot of disputes involving this sort of thing, I can tell you that seeking legal recourse after the fact is very seldom worth it, so you need to find the simplest possible method of keeping track of the broker -- and it turns out to also be a good way to see what sort of job the broker is doing as well.
To simplify, cut out the straw buyer completely, and what you have is a broker who buys your boat at a low price and then sells it, either to a buyer he already knows about, or to one who comes in after the fact. The problem is, if your boat doesn't happen to attract a buyer at your fair price, you may end up accepting a completely legitimate lowball offer, after which it is possible the boat could be resold thereafter at a much higher price -- and you wouldn't know if you were cheated or if it was just a matter of timing.
The broker's contract probably contains language that requires him to inform you of all offers. If possible, get him to modify that and to inform you of all inquiries. That will help you judge how well the boat is being advertised, and the general state of the market. It may also let you know if the price is right to generate interest. If you get suspicious, you can always arrange for someone to contact the broker expressing interest. If the passes that on to you, it shows he is honoring the contract. If he doesn't, he is probably falling short, but there would be a possibility your fears are being realized and he is trying to suppress offers to get you to part with the boat at an artificially low price.
There are a lot of ways brokers can hurt you, some less ethical than others. Real estate brokers sometimes "buy" a listing by agreeing to list a house for an inflated price. That way they get the listing, but the house sits on the market for a long time, so the seller gets hurt by the delay and may end up selling for less than he could have gotten in the first place. The broker makes money though with a listing he would not have gotten otherwise.
With boats, in many places there is a lot less competition for listings, but the fact is that most brokers just want to make sales -- to the point that most are much more interested in closing a deal than pushing the price up a few more dollars to get a slightly higher commission. Getting paid today is a lot more important than possibly getting paid a bit more at some uncertain point in the future.
If you ask the broker to let you know about all inquiries, that will let you know if your boat is properly priced and effectively promoted. It will also help safeguard against the fairly unlikely situation where a broker may try to flip the boat using a straw man.

[DavidN]

Originally Posted by StuM

Is the vessel documented? If so what is it's flag country?

It's a fully registered uk vessel.

[Rockinar]

You have to agree to the selling price. Thats up to YOU, not the broker. It does not matter who they sell it to. If you want a certain price for it, you just keep waiting till you get it, or when your contract with the broker expires, find a new broker and keep waiting.

You can accept or decline the offers.

[DavidN]

Originally Posted by Brioche

Having handled a lot of disputes involving this sort of thing, I can tell you that seeking legal recourse after the fact is very seldom worth it, so you need to find the simplest possible method of keeping track of the broker -- and it turns out to also be a good way to see what sort of job the broker is doing as well.
To simplify, cut out the straw buyer completely, and what you have is a broker who buys your boat at a low price and then sells it, either to a buyer he already knows about, or to one who comes in after the fact. The problem is, if your boat doesn't happen to attract a buyer at your fair price, you may end up accepting a completely legitimate lowball offer, after which it is possible the boat could be resold thereafter at a much higher price -- and you wouldn't know if you were cheated or if it was just a matter of timing.
The broker's contract probably contains language that requires him to inform you of all offers. If possible, get him to modify that and to inform you of all inquiries. That will help you judge how well the boat is being advertised, and the general state of the market. It may also let you know if the price is right to generate interest. If you get suspicious, you can always arrange for someone to contact the broker expressing interest. If the passes that on to you, it shows he is honoring the contract. If he doesn't, he is probably falling short, but there would be a possibility your fears are being realized and he is trying to suppress offers to get you to part with the boat at an artificially low price.
There are a lot of ways brokers can hurt you, some less ethical than others. Real estate brokers sometimes "buy" a listing by agreeing to list a house for an inflated price. That way they get the listing, but the house sits on the market for a long time, so the seller gets hurt by the delay and may end up selling for less than he could have gotten in the first place. The broker makes money though with a listing he would not have gotten otherwise.
With boats, in many places there is a lot less competition for listings, but the fact is that most brokers just want to make sales -- to the point that most are much more interested in closing a deal than pushing the price up a few more dollars to get a slightly higher commission. Getting paid today is a lot more important than possibly getting paid a bit more at some uncertain point in the future.
If you ask the broker to let you know about all inquiries, that will let you know if your boat is properly priced and effectively promoted. It will also help safeguard against the fairly unlikely situation where a broker may try to flip the boat using a straw man.

Thanks for this... i suppose as you say, the only real way is to test to see if all bids are being past on to me by creating some fake ones as once the paperwork is done it's not worth the time or effort to try and get any recourse as it could just be bad timing that i got a low bids so no real evidence and costly to pursue.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by S/V Illusion

I too once sold a boat remotely via a broker. Rather than trust a(ny) broker, I gave him my minimum acceptable price and told him he can keep anything over that amount as an incentive to sell. Works much better than any commission incentive.

I pay brokers/agents to get me top dollar not bottom dollar.

[DavidN]

Originally Posted by Rockinar

You have to agree to the selling price. Thats up to YOU, not the broker. It does not matter who they sell it to. If you want a certain price for it, you just keep waiting till you get it, or when your contract with the broker expires, find a new broker and keep waiting.

You can accept or decline the offers.

i know but after 4 months of low bids, you get still a low bid but a bit better and with marina fees going out plus maintenance cost you might agree to something lower than what it's really worth or being sold at. That's hardly fair when you pay a broker to get you more money not less. And as i've said there is one broker on the island, thats it, so i'm not exactly spoilt for choice. Flying back is also a costly option to then spend 2 weeks sailing to Florida for example. I was just looking for a way to see if it's possible to safeguard against brokers doing this and there doesn't appear to be a simple solution.

[DavidN]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

I pay brokers/agents to get me top dollar not bottom dollar.

Exactly if i wanted to sell it cheap i could post it online myself and get it sold without trying and not paying a brokerage fees. You pay brokers to get you more money, not the bare minimum you'd take.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by DavidN

Exactly if i wanted to sell it cheap i could post it online myself and get it sold without trying and not paying a brokerage fees. You pay brokers to get you more money, not the bare minimum you'd take.

No a broker is paid to sell the boat he’s in effect an agent of both the buyer and seller. The broker isn’t actually your agent , as he’s paid by the buyer . That’s why he’s called “ a broker “

You use a broker cause he advertises widely ,takes care of showing the boat ( you’d end up flying to the boat to show it ) and helping the paperwork processes. His job is not to get you top dollar per se.

I know many brokers that have said to the sellers. Your asking is too high here’s a reasonable offer. Etc

Ultimately you can’t have your cake and eat it. If you want top dollar be prepared to wait ,be prescient as to boatpricing trends , be prepared to wrack up yard and storage costs. Etc etc . It’s even worse of your boat is remote from main markets as the punters are limited.


Ultimately you decide, take the money and run or wait.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

. The broker isn’t actually your agent , as he’s paid by the buyer .
.

So why do we as a seller pay commission?

Any idiot can sell a boat cheap
And any idiot can list a boat on the internet

[StuM]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

No a broker is paid to sell the boat he’s in effect an agent of both the buyer and seller. The broker isn’t actually your agent , as he’s paid by the buyer . That’s why he’s called “ a broker “

Not in my experience. in any sale through a broker/agent (boat, real estate, consignment sale of goods etc*) , the broker takes his percentage off the selling price.
If the agreed price is 100,000, the buyer pays 100,000, the broker takes say 10,000 and the seller gets the other 90,000.



*Except for bloody auctioneers who get you coming and going - they tend to charge commission to both the buyer and seller

[DavidN]

Originally Posted by StuM

Not in my experience. in any sale through a broker/agent (boat, real estate, consignment sale of goods etc*) , the broker takes his percentage off the selling price.
If the agreed price is 100,000, the buyer pays 100,000, the broker takes say 10,000 and the seller gets the other 90,000.



*Except for bloody auctioneers who get you coming and going - they tend to charge commission to both the buyer and seller

Yeah i'm pretty sure i'm the one paying him to work for me and find decent buyers. As another poster said, any idiot can stick a boat for sale online cheap and sell it.

[Simi 60]

The unfortunate thing with any dealings we have done is agents/brokers mostly always try to "condition" the seller to accept a lower price

A considerable drop in price makes for a quick and easy sale for the inept broker and only costs him small $ in commission
For the seller the loss is always considerably more

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

So why do we as a seller pay commission?

Any idiot can sell a boat cheap
And any idiot can list a boat on the internet

Actually the buyer effectively pays.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by StuM

Not in my experience. in any sale through a broker/agent (boat, real estate, consignment sale of goods etc*) , the broker takes his percentage off the selling price.
If the agreed price is 100,000, the buyer pays 100,000, the broker takes say 10,000 and the seller gets the other 90,000.



*Except for bloody auctioneers who get you coming and going - they tend to charge commission to both the buyer and seller

A broker is an English term meaning “ to arrange or negotiate a deal or settlement “

Ultimately the broker gets paid on the basis of a deal. He would only be your agent if you were paying him regardless of a sale or not.

Hence it’s a mistake to assume a broker is either a buyers or sellers agent. He’s not in fact , his goal is to mediate a sale

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

So why do we as a seller pay commission?

Any idiot can sell a boat cheap
And any idiot can list a boat on the internet

You pay a broker to advertise through his extensive list of contacts. Before the internet this was much harder to do as it meant placing paid ads etc.

Sure these days it’s in theory easier. I sold my last boat without any broker

The broker is also there to protect both buyer and seller , and should be a member of a well recognised broker representative body , have indemnity insurance , proper client bank accounts and a good understanding of flag laws , taxes and other regulatory issues.

That’s what buyer and seller are paying for.