Boat length NOT increasing over the decades

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Beneteau start at 20ft, 25ft, 31.5 etc etc... if they weren't selling they'd not be building.. but then its a different scene in the EU.
Imagine other EU builders are the same.

Sailboats First 25 - Sailing Yacht Beneteau

Looks like new Hunters start at 15 feet. Jeaneau at 31'. Bavaria at 32’. Who else…

New boat offerings skew to the larger lengths, but we don’t know how many of each size are actually sold.

[SteveSpring]

Originally Posted by boatman61

This side of the pond 36ft was considered the optimum size for long distance cruising.. but many did it in slightly smaller.
Sailing dinghies were for short hops to France..

Or crossing the North Sea a la Frank Dye....

Not sure I would want anything bigger than about 33 feet tbh. Very much in the KISS camp and the bigger the boat, it seems the more 'stuff' there is to go wrong....

[Mike OReilly]

So, is 42 feet (average) the ideal boat length for small crew, recreational circumnavigators? That is certainly one possible explanation for the findings.

Despite overall average boat size increasing (which is still speculation, but I believe is true), is it possible that recreational sailors who cross the Big Blue have figured out the optimum size is around 42 feet?

IF this is the case, it’s certainly not a message typically heard in online cruising forums. The more common messages are either Go Big or Go Small. I’ve not seen many people saying there is an optimum size that is neither small or big, but somewhere in between.

[ahun]

On paper or reality? Apparently, new boats when measured are bigger then they are sold (a brand new Bavaria 36 was told to be 38 feet). We just talked about this recently, and compered similar sized recent and old designes. I have no scientific evidence, but it seems that new designes are more spacious not just because clever layout, but actually faked LOA numbers.

[robert sailor]

Mike I agree with Jim..We were a 36 footer back then and I'd say we were in the upper quartile size wise for sure. I'm thinking back and of the boats that made the sail down the coast a very large group left Mexico heading to Hawaii. I'm not sure what percentage but there were not that many boats to begin with..this was similar times to Jim's experience. Keep in mind, in our case and we were not very different from the average cruiser back then we had a vhf radio and a portable HF receiver...That was it.....no watermakers,gensets,solar panels,smart battery charger,chart plotter,GPS, radar.. etc. etc. Things were very simple at that time. Everyone I knew was on a tight budget, we were all young and everything was possible, those were wonderful days. We knew 2 separate boats that were trying to learn celestial navigation just a couple of weeks before leaving for Hawaii. One of them had bought the boat in Mexico only a few months before and were just learning to sail..We went out one night and they announced they were not going to be left alone and were going to sail to Hawaii as well...which they did..as Boatie said, different days, different people.

[BlueChicago]

Mike,

I can't help but wonder what the trend is for the waterline length - especially as we see a trend toward IMOCA styling.

On the same thread, I would curious to see what the trend is for internal volume, though with lighter, high tech materials/manufacturing, perhaps this would not show much of a change.

Thanks - interesting thread.

-BC

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

So, is 42 feet (average) the ideal boat length for small crew, recreational circumnavigators? .

I have a 43’ boat and I feel for a couple the idea aft cockpit mono is 46-48’. With that you get great tank, sleeping comfort, good storage, fast but fairly manageable sail plans. After that a couple get nothing except later bills and the extra length just goes to guest space (like you want them o get too comfortable)

[cal40john]

Originally Posted by BlueChicago

Mike,

I can't help but wonder what the trend is for the waterline length - especially as we see a trend toward IMOCA styling.

On the same thread, I would curious to see what the trend is for internal volume, though with lighter, high tech materials/manufacturing, perhaps this would not show much of a change.

Thanks - interesting thread.

-BC

I was thinking on similar lines. I was thinking about Heavy Weather Sailing. Weren't those boats about 40', but narrow, long overhangs, slack bilges, sitting room only. The actual cabin would have been tiny compared to today's designs.
They were concerned about windage. I seem to remember a line something like why would you want standing headroom, the cabin is for sitting down to eat and sleeping.

[Bean Counter]

It may just be economics. If average boat prices have risen the same or more than the average pay packet then the average cruiser just can't buy a bigger boat any more today than he could 20 years ago. It would be interesting to compare the average wage 20 years ago to say a 42 ft standard yacht and see. Don't know how easy the boat data will be to get.

[ggray]

Very interesting.

But for sure the size of the average charter bareboat has increased significantly. At least w/ the majors, you don't see any bareboat smaller than 32 feet.

[belizesailor]

Mike, does the data distinguish between mono & multi?

The average cruising boat may not be getting longer, but they have definately gotten wider.

I just splashed from Linton Bay Marina, Panama and the majority of the boats in the yard were catamarans.

[Bean Counter]

Just a quick google search

Mean Wages USA 2000 = 40k in 2016 60k

Beneteau 40 2000 155k 2016 220k (Base list price)

Wage/Boat = 2000 26% 2016 27% This is not research but just one example

[Polux]

What matters is not the boats that are used for this or that but what people is buying now as new boats for cruising. New boats of today will be used boats of tomorrow while older boats will be ditched out.

If we look at the last 20 years the difference in average size is huge, the difference between what they were buying 10 years ago and now is considerable.

In Europe today a 40ft boat is a small cruiser, 45ft is maybe the average but boats tend to become bigger and that's way condo cats are become increasingly popular.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by BlueChicago

Mike,

I can't help but wonder what the trend is for the waterline length - especially as we see a trend toward IMOCA styling.

On the same thread, I would curious to see what the trend is for internal volume, though with lighter, high tech materials/manufacturing, perhaps this would not show much of a change.

Thanks - interesting thread.

-BC

Yes, all fascinating questions (at least, to me). The data isn’t explicit about LWL, although most entries include type of boat. You could go through and add in the LWL, but you’d have to research every vessel … that’s just too much work for me.

Internal volume would be even harder since I’m not aware of any way to get at that number for the wide variety of boats listed.

In both these cases, I bet you’re right to suggest LWL and interior space has increased even though LOA may not have.

Originally Posted by Bean Counter

It may just be economics. If average boat prices have risen the same or more than the average pay packet then the average cruiser just can't buy a bigger boat any more today than he could 20 years ago. It would be interesting to compare the average wage 20 years ago to say a 42 ft standard yacht and see. Don't know how easy the boat data will be to get.

I suspect it economics is at least partly the answer. If we go by gross income we know the American middle class inflation-adjusted income has been stagnant, or has slightly declined, over this period. Canada has done slightly better, but not dramatically.

Originally Posted by Polux

What matters is not the boats that are used for this or that but what people is buying now as new boats for cruising. New boats of today will be used boats of tomorrow while older boats will be ditched out.

If we look at the last 20 years the difference in average size is huge, the difference between what they were buying 10 years ago and now is considerable.

In Europe today a 40ft boat is a small cruiser, 45ft is maybe the average but boats tend to become bigger and that's way condo cats are become increasingly popular.

This is the data I’m asking for. Where do you get your numbers Polux? Do you have access to sales data over the decades that you can share?

The results are clear from this specific database: average boat LOA has not changed much over the decades.

[JPA Cate]

Mike, Jim and I were talking about it, and I'm questioning the sample. First off, it is limited to people who reported to Latitude 38, who would be only a small proportion of circumnavigators. It is a San Francisco Bay Area publication, and, for instance, I would think Europeans and the British would be very under represented, plus, even East Coast US Coast. So, there's no data relative to other groups' boat sizes.

Another source you could look into would be SSCA, they give awards to people who request them upon circumnavigation. This does mean that not all SSCA member circumnavigators would be shown, because of differences in how they view a circumnavigation. Some people find it incidental, they got finished cruising and want to go "home." For others, it is a form of counting coup, and those would get the award.

Another difficulty for me are the time spans considered. It might be more informative to compare decades, starting with the '70's and working forward, and also look at prosperity for the homeland nations during those times, too.

Here's an hypothesis: countries ranked in the top ten for standard of living have been producing more boats over 40 ft of length since 1985. You'd need a research grant, and helpers, a huge effort.